Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:37:04 04/12/00
Go up one level in this thread
On April 12, 2000 at 07:53:23, James T. Walker wrote: >On April 12, 2000 at 00:16:51, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On April 11, 2000 at 22:32:42, James T. Walker wrote: >> >>>************* >>>For a quick education, go to ICC and do a search on "TheComputer" vs "Crafty". >>>See if you can tell anything from the "Trends". Guess when "TheComputer" >>>started using Fritz6 if you can. I'll bet it's pretty easy. But of course none >>>of this supports your opinion. By the way I believe that "TheComputer" is >>>running on a K6-3-450. >>>************* >>> >> >> >>First, I have learned to never trust finger notes. For reasons unknown to >>me, most people running commercial engines like to 'fudge' their hardware >>configuration. >> >>Second, you can't draw _any_ conclusions by looking at "crafty" on ICC. >>Remeber that is where _I_ do my testing/debugging. And I have broken it >>many times. You only have to look at the history info you mentioned to >>see that something was up. It started off with crafty at 3150, then it >>dropped to 2700-2800 for most of the games, and then slowly climbed back to >>its present 3100 level. During much of that time crafty was broken with some >>known bugs... >> >>Finally, I don't really care _where_ I am relative to the commercial engines. >>It is obvious that I do some things differently than they do, particularly >>against the 'draw-king' humans. I consider that a much more interesting problem >>to solve at present, while the commercial programs are still having serious >>problems with them, but spending their time trying to compete for number 1 on >>the SSDF. My goal is different. Which doesn't mean their goals are wrong. >>Just 'different' from mine... >> >>I'm surprised it did as well as it did on the SSDF... that isn't a priority >>at all. All of my tuning is done after watching human games, not computer >>games. > >Hello Bob, >You are right as usual. You also know more about what is happening with Crafty >than anyone else so it's hard to argue with you about Crafty. I have seen >examples of GM's/IM's playing against Fritz/Junior on ICC(Very few). When these >"Draw-Kings" try to take a computer into a locked up position it's hard to >prevent it. I'm sure Crafty is better at this than the commercials since you >have spent a lot of time working on these particular problems. >I'm not sure I believe you when you say you don't care where you are relative to >the commercials. :) I'll bet you would love to be at the top of the SSDF list! Anybody that knows me knows that I don't like to lose. But at present, I try to put one foot in front of the other, step by step. And the first step is to solve the locked positions. Because when I solve that, I plan on using that very strategy against other computers. :) I have made progress. But I am not done by a long way, yet. >I do believe that it is not your primary goal. I don't think the commercials >have a goal that is too far different from yours. Their priorities may be >different because of sales goals but I'll bet both of you would love to be at >the top of the SSDF list and also be able to beat most any GM. IMHO those two goals are opposites. Ed stated as much when he announced the partnership with Christophe. I happen to agree. The program that is going to top the SSDF list is not necessarily the program that is going to do the best against human players, yet. One day, yes. When/if I come up with a workable solution for all blocked positions, look out, because employing that against other programs will prove to be devastating since I don't know of a single program that handles this at present... And it would be poetic justice to employ an anti-computer strategy against a computer. :) > The second >appears harder than the first. I don't believe you can achieve the goal of >beating most GM's without also being in the running for the top spot on the SSDF >list (At this time anyway). Rebel seems to be mostly in the group that is more >interested in beating GM's than topping the SSDF list also. I'm willing to bet >that Ed would also love to be at the top of the SSDF list too if it was >possible. You seem to be playing a "game within a game" vs the top players on >ICC. They look for "loopholes" in Crafty and you look for ways to fix them. >For this reason, Crafty may very well be better prepared to play GM's now than >Fritz but that's hard to prove without a lot of man/machine matches. I do know >that the few GM's I've seen play Fritz/Junior at blitz on ICC didn't fare to >well. I believe I did see GK destroy Hiarcs 7.32 at 2/1 on ICC but can't be >sure since he played as a guest. But as you know GM's can prepare lines that >computers can't understand especially at 2/1 time controls so this is not as >great an accomplishment as some might think. If you look around on ICC you will find lots of programs that won't play many GM/IM players that are known anti-computer types. Because they know what happens in most of the games. Some even have finger notes like "some of you are able to draw at will against this program. If you continue to do this, I will refuse to play you." >In my opinion, the progress you are making with Crafty is just as great as what >the commercials are doing. It just looks to me like they had a head start in >the PC business and catching up is a difficult process. This is especially true >since your innovations are public knowledge and the commercials are not bashfull >about grabbing your ideas. >Regards, >Jim Walker
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