Author: Enrique Irazoqui
Date: 07:28:47 09/27/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 27, 2000 at 09:38:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On September 26, 2000 at 15:45:26, Peter Kappler wrote: > >>On September 26, 2000 at 10:24:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On September 25, 2000 at 23:48:05, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>> >>>>On September 25, 2000 at 22:26:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 21:03:09, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:48:30, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:21:34, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 09:01:19, Antonio Dieguez wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>hello! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I come to ask two things, please... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What are the results of the basics endgames KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR, both draws? >>>>>>>>> if it is, there is some exceptions except the obvius? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>And can someone post some of these mate in n positions with n very very very >>>>>>>>>high? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Easy position to win!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is wrong. _most_ KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR are _drawn_. There are some >>>>>>>wins for the stronger side, and even a couple of wins for the side without >>>>>>>the B/N, but in general these are dead draws. >>>>>> >>>>>>These are generally draws, but they are not "dead draws". I watched an IM Ben >>>>>>Finegold lose a drawn, but otherwise normal position in just such an ending at a >>>>>>tournament despite the aid of adjournment analysis. Ask him. I bet he remembers. >>>>>>It was against a computer and it cost him a lot of money. You must be thinking >>>>>>of KR vs KB, which is generally mindlessly easy to hold. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I didn't say "mindlessly easy to draw". I said "dead drawn". IE most of >>>>>the positions are draws. KRN vs KR is easy to draw as a human. KRB vs KR is >>>>>harder to draw but it is _still_ a well-known draw. Although there are some >>>>>programs that don't know this and blunder into it thinking they are a whole >>>>>piece up for about 50 moves... >>>> >>>>Ahem. I never claimed you said KRBKR was "mindlessly easy to draw". You're >>>>having problems understanding simple english. >>>> >>>>KRBKR is not a "dead draw". A good player stands a fair chance of losing that >>>>ending. Do you think you yourself can reliably hold it against Crafty? >>> >>>I'm not having any trouble with English here. "dead drawn" means "unwinnable". >>>Not "easily unwinnable" or "unwinnable if the opponent plays a perfect (and >>>difficult to follow) series of moves." >>> >> >>I have to agree with Ricardo. I think you're using the word "dead" way too >>loosely here. >> >>"Dead drawn" implies that there are no difficult moves to find, and no chances >>of getting swindled. You don't hear KRBKR described as a dead draw, because >>everybody knows that the drawing technique is difficult. Same thing for many >>theoretically drawn KQPKQ and KRPKR endings. The defender has to play >>accurately in these positions. >> >>I sure as heck wouldn't offer a draw from the stronger side of KRBKR. I'd >>torture my opponent for a couple of hours and make him prove it. :) >> >>--Peter >> > > >I use the term "dead drawn" for positions where there is no hope to win. For >an example, set up any krb vs kr with Crafty and play it out. You'll then >appreciate the dead drawn description. > >:) In a comp-comp game I played yesterday, I got this variation on your theme. It's a KBp-Kp, but the same story: a "dead won" position that becomes a draw. I think that in computer games there is no "dead" anything until mate, resignation, stalemate, 3 fold repetition, 50 move rule or insufficient material. [D]8/6Bp/K7/2k5/8/8/7P/8 w - - 0 71 that after 50 moves was a draw [D]4K2k/7p/7P/8/5B2/8/8/8 b - - 0 125 It was a simple matter of realizing that pushing the h pawn was a horrible idea. All white had to do was putting black in zug. But... Oh yes, white was a top notch program, a strong candidate to become the new SSDF leader. Enrique >>>KRB vs KR is a dead drawn position except for a few exceptions. Just as KBN vs >>>K is a win (not easy for some of course) and KQ vs KR. >>> >>>And yes, I would be willing to tackle Crafty. KRB has a few pitfalls that KRN >>>doesn't have. But if you study the ending a bit, it is as easy to draw as it >>>is to win with KQ vs KR, for example. >>>
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