Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:12:48 09/28/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 28, 2000 at 01:48:16, Peter Kappler wrote: >On September 28, 2000 at 00:26:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On September 27, 2000 at 12:21:30, Peter Kappler wrote: >> >>>On September 27, 2000 at 09:38:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On September 26, 2000 at 15:45:26, Peter Kappler wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 26, 2000 at 10:24:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 23:48:05, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 22:26:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 21:03:09, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:48:30, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:21:34, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 09:01:19, Antonio Dieguez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>hello! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I come to ask two things, please... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>What are the results of the basics endgames KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR, both draws? >>>>>>>>>>>> if it is, there is some exceptions except the obvius? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>And can someone post some of these mate in n positions with n very very very >>>>>>>>>>>>high? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Easy position to win!! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>This is wrong. _most_ KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR are _drawn_. There are some >>>>>>>>>>wins for the stronger side, and even a couple of wins for the side without >>>>>>>>>>the B/N, but in general these are dead draws. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>These are generally draws, but they are not "dead draws". I watched an IM Ben >>>>>>>>>Finegold lose a drawn, but otherwise normal position in just such an ending at a >>>>>>>>>tournament despite the aid of adjournment analysis. Ask him. I bet he remembers. >>>>>>>>>It was against a computer and it cost him a lot of money. You must be thinking >>>>>>>>>of KR vs KB, which is generally mindlessly easy to hold. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I didn't say "mindlessly easy to draw". I said "dead drawn". IE most of >>>>>>>>the positions are draws. KRN vs KR is easy to draw as a human. KRB vs KR is >>>>>>>>harder to draw but it is _still_ a well-known draw. Although there are some >>>>>>>>programs that don't know this and blunder into it thinking they are a whole >>>>>>>>piece up for about 50 moves... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ahem. I never claimed you said KRBKR was "mindlessly easy to draw". You're >>>>>>>having problems understanding simple english. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>KRBKR is not a "dead draw". A good player stands a fair chance of losing that >>>>>>>ending. Do you think you yourself can reliably hold it against Crafty? >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm not having any trouble with English here. "dead drawn" means "unwinnable". >>>>>>Not "easily unwinnable" or "unwinnable if the opponent plays a perfect (and >>>>>>difficult to follow) series of moves." >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I have to agree with Ricardo. I think you're using the word "dead" way too >>>>>loosely here. >>>>> >>>>>"Dead drawn" implies that there are no difficult moves to find, and no chances >>>>>of getting swindled. You don't hear KRBKR described as a dead draw, because >>>>>everybody knows that the drawing technique is difficult. Same thing for many >>>>>theoretically drawn KQPKQ and KRPKR endings. The defender has to play >>>>>accurately in these positions. >>>>> >>>>>I sure as heck wouldn't offer a draw from the stronger side of KRBKR. I'd >>>>>torture my opponent for a couple of hours and make him prove it. :) >>>>> >>>>>--Peter >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I use the term "dead drawn" for positions where there is no hope to win. For >>>>an example, set up any krb vs kr with Crafty and play it out. You'll then >>>>appreciate the dead drawn description. >>>> >>>>:) >>>> >>> >>> >>>Nice try, but "dead drawn" is supposed to be a general description of a >>>position. Factoring in the strength of the players just adds an unnecessary >>>assymetry. For example, if I have the rook, and Crafty has the rook+bishop, >>>suddenly it's not a dead draw. >>> >>>--Peter >>> >> >> >>In that regard, KNN vs K is not a dead draw. The side with the K can always >>blunder. > > >You've missed the point entirely. Or you just enjoy being stubborn. I strongly >suspect the latter... :) Nope. We just seem to disagree on the term. From experience watching Crafty on ICC, every KRB vs KR ends in a draw. Hence my term "dead drawn". > > >> >>I call this a dead draw because I know that if Crafty trades into a KRB vs KR >>is it _not_ going to win most of them, assuming the opponent is an IM, a GM, >>or a Computer. >> > > >That's an awkward definition of "dead drawn", but this thread has gone on long >enough, so I think I will bow out for now. > >--Peter Maybe "drawn, but with winning chances if weaker side screws up" fits better? :)
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