Author: leonid
Date: 13:06:38 12/03/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 03, 2000 at 01:27:21, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 02, 2000 at 21:07:50, leonid wrote: > >>On December 02, 2000 at 16:38:34, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On December 02, 2000 at 11:39:14, leonid wrote: >>> >>>>On December 01, 2000 at 20:36:27, walter irvin wrote: >>>> >>>>>i have no doubt that you have a monster of a system , but i still believe that a >>>>>human will always find a way . not all people for sure .but the best player will >>>>>always be a human because people are so devious , sneaky , slippery,and cheat >>>>>,actually hate to lose .plus some people are just super smart , like a morphy .i >>>>>really believe that if morphy played deep blue a 6 game match morphy would have >>>>>won .there will always come a person who will be able to beat the machine .true >>>>>maybe if the person did not know who they were playing the machine would win . >>>>>but the human does know ,plays his style based on that . >>>> >>>>I think that human is inevitable looser in the chess game at long run. I doubt >>>>very much that chess game, as game for human, will stay alive more that one >>>>century. As calligraphy became pointless with invention of typewriter, human >>>>game will fade out as soon as computers brain will become somewhat mature. >>> >>> >>>It is not the same. >>>Chess is a sport. >>> >>>Humans did not stop to compete in running because of cars and for the same >>>reason they will not stop to compete in chess because of chess programs. >> >>I think that human will shy away from the chess game like it happened already >>few times in some other fields. To make you see what I am been talking about, I >>will mention only one example. Up to the 1970 there was some people that went >>everwhere exhibiting their phenomenal capacity to calculate numbers. Huge list >>of numbers! Where are all this people now? They just vanish after invention of >>small electronic calculator. >> >> >>> >>> >>>>Computers now just started their life. Never mind! Even now they proved to be >>>>able to beat almost every human while they are in deep infancy. >>>> >>>>8 men tables is good but not that important for computers final win. When >>>>computer will be strong enough, it will win each chess game well before game >>>>will reach its final stage. >>> >>>I do not agree about it. >>>The question is about the complexity of the game. >>> >>>I believe that the game is simple enough for the best humans to draw part of the >>>games against computers at 40/ 2 hours. >>> >>>If the game is simple enough humans can solve it and draw every game against >>>computers. >>> >>>Chess is not so simple that humans can solve it but I believe that it is simple >>>enough for the best humans to draw always part of the games at the time control >>>of 2 hours/40 moves. >>> >>>I expect programs to win humans in every game but only in more complex games >>>like go when the board is 19*19 and not 8*8. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>I have the impression that computer have better chances with 8*8 board. >>Selective search is done better by human that by computer. With 8*8 computer >>have chances to see much deeper and make its weak selective search less >>detrimental to its actual game. >> >>Leonid. > >This is the situation today and the top programs have no chance against the best >humans in go but I expect it to change in the future when better hardware and >better algorithms will be discovered. > >Computers are faster than humans and I believe that it is possible to teach >computers more knowledge that humans know about games and also some knowledge >that humans do not know(learning to have better evaluation function and better >pruning rules based on a lot of games they play against themselves). > >I know that learning to have better evaluation function by playing against >themselves happened in backgammon > >Uri I agree with you 100%. I even think that it is possible that best program will be done by computer, even if this will not arrive that soon. Capacity of computer is limited only by its hardware but not by some absence of "human like thinking". Probably computer will become smart for the same reason as human being. Nature was not able to provide human with everything in advance for good fonction. So one part of human intelligence consist not that much in hardware written knowledge (insticts) but rather on capacity to write its own program on the spot. It could be that human will be fed up with computer as well as nature was with us. This is why some kind of capacity to think on its own will be given to the computer to make everybody happy. From that time computer will be ready to write its own chess program. Only I am not sure that he will be still interested in human game. It could be that it will create its own game. Game that it will enjoy for the first time in his life! Leonid
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