Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 00:41:15 03/19/98
Go up one level in this thread
>Posted by Detlef Pordzik on March 18, 1998 at 19:44:04: >In Reply to: Re: SSDF and the programmers............ posted by Ed Schröder >on March 18, 1998 at 04:38:38: >On March 18, 1998 at 04:38:38, Ed Schröder wrote: >>I fully agree with you. If things get honest again (engine versus >>engine) >>I will be happy to join the SSDF again. But let's face it, first we had >>to deal with book cooks, then the learners came and now we have to deal >>with an unknown autoplayer from a competitor? >Yes - this is right, let me say - the majority of it..... >you know it, I know it - and all of them people of the elder times : >what we now call book - cooking was named outbooking in them old times - >but, it >was more durable ( :-) ) - because of burnt EPROM's. >This has allways been there..... >because of lack of knowledge, how the learner actually works, I cannot >comment this - you must know better, if there are more possibilitiers >than just avoiding a loosing line, as a simple man'd suggest it to work. >>This for me is just the limit. Till now everybody has made his >>autoplayer public. Now we have a new fashion, a secret autoplayer. >>Who is next? Why should I join this new fashion? >Don't you do so, Ed ! You have my word. >For my opinion neather you, nor Marty, Richard, Johann, Mark, Stefan and >Robert >would need to join such a " new " - but leading into nowhere - " fashion >". >( Jesus - hopefully didn't forget one of them big names....) >This road'd be a dead end street - the basical quality of the progs is >far too >high + in the end you all'd ruin the effort of many years. You are so right. We are now in a state that "improving learning" overrules the importance of "improving the chess engine". All fine with me in HUMAN-COMP games but not for COMP-COMP games on SSDF and (miss) using AUTO232 for that purpose. If I take the 100% Rebel9 chess engine (so no improvements at all!) add the "learner" improvements as I have described in a previous posting, and release this as Rebel_SSDF then Rebel_SSDF will end up 30-40 elo points higher on SSDF than Rebel9. Then I start "yelling" on the Rebel Home Page, "Rebel_SSDF is much stronger than Rebel9!!". That would be a cheat to the public IMO. In fact the only thing I would have done (please read my previous posting) is that I have taken advantage of the fact that I know NOW *HOW* SSDF testers do their testing. I don't want to be a part of such a development but this kind of things is happening right before our eyes since a few years. >Because then there would be no more research on increase of the quality >of gameplay - but only the gasp for new horizons of tricks..... >I fairly doubt - as I know some of you, that the people themselves would >do it, after all. It would just be the upcoming end - correct ?? For me this is a correct conclusion. Others disagree. Others say see it as an innovation. Or as a development you can't stop. Or as making a chess program as a complete chess player. Or in a match everything is allowed. I say yes to all of this as long this is related to HUMAN-COMP but not for COMP-COMP games on SSDF and (miss) using AUTO232 for that purpose. I noticed that besides you and a few others most people do not share my views I have tried to share. I guess I will lose this discussion. So I like to be out. I hereby resign. - Ed - >Dull ELVIS could offer a solution on short range, where the " loosing >part " - >in this case, SSDF, would have a minimum of problems - comparing to the >state of art : >just start a new testing seria with F5 - book on HD - why not....leave >the brute >searcher it's 44 MB - why not....R9 + M7 can grab 60 MEGS without >problems - but >in difference to F5 they don't NEED such big tablebases on 40/120...... >repeat all this on commercial available autoplayer - and then replace >the old result. >IF F5 is still on top, then, it's allright - if not - I don't >know...:-)) >This would even leave CB the chance of not loosing their face ( totally >). >Not to forget Frans Morsch - who is really kicked by all this ! >On longer range : >ONLY commercial available progs with the original engine. >Skip doubles. >Standard autoplayer. >Maybe I'm a dreamer.....but I see nothin' better ; >for the SSDF >for buisness >for the customer >>I do not share Ossie Weiner's opinions in the way he has expressed >>himself. I have no single evidence the chessbase autoplayer cheats. >>Neither do I expect that from a respected company. But I should have >>the chance to check that myself. It's called fair competition. >As I've posted before - >Ossi does his job - I think, you're one of the VERY last - not to know >this, eh ? >What does KK allways post standardly ? >"....should be taken with a grain of salt...." >- make the load a little bigger - then you can swallow this, too :-)) >>Sofar I noticed: >>#1. The chessbase autoplayer doesn't save the opponents game. Maybe >>opponents in that stage update their learner? Logical place no? And >>now maybe this learner update is bypassed? For Rebel8/9 this could >>be so true. I can't check. How can I judge? >>#2. The chessbase autoplayer changes colors. white-black-white and >>so on. This is not COMMON auto232. Looking at my source code this >>doesn't seem to influence the learner of Rebel. But how can I know >>for sure? And what about other chess programs? Did the Swedish ask >>the programmers if this white-black-white behavior influence their >>learners? One thing for sure, they didn't ask me. And from a >>programmers view of point this white-black-white behavior can easily >>disturb their learner. >>Quite a mess... >ELVIS ain't no programmer - I think, Robert wrote something interesting >about this. >Anyway - right in here ( without any elitary attitude ) - there are so >many >educated guys......names - older, newer - alot of them known for long >time in this buisness - >one should think about constructing an open letter ( why only Ossi....), >maybe >signed by 30 or 40 respectable people - so there'd be no chance to spot >it as a single sided commercial sight - >and then send it to Sweden......only a suggestion. >ELVIS
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