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Subject: Re: Junior 6 has an enormous bug, you are right

Author: Michael P. Nance Sr.

Date: 15:34:35 03/17/01

Go up one level in this thread


On March 17, 2001 at 14:53:05, Uri Blass wrote:

>On March 17, 2001 at 14:38:32, Michael P. Nance Sr. wrote:
>
>>On March 17, 2001 at 13:49:47, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On March 17, 2001 at 13:43:30, jonas cohonas wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 17, 2001 at 13:04:29, Antonio Senatore wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>It seems incredible that a top chess program like Junior 6 (without the KPPKB
>>>>>tablebase but with the KBK and the KBKP tables) CAN'T SEE MATE IN ONE in the
>>>>>next position:
>>>>>
>>>>>7k/4pK1p/7B/8/8/8/8/8 w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>Junior neither can see mate in one in the following positions (without KNNKP
>>>>>tablebase):
>>>>>
>>>>>8/8/8/8/6N1/5NK1/7p/7k w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>8/8/8/8/8/6NK/3N1p2/6k1 w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In the next position, he can't see mate in two:
>>>>>
>>>>>7k/3N4/6KN/8/8/8/7p/8 w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's hope in the next update this problem is resolved.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards.
>>>>>
>>>>>Antonio
>>>>
>>>>New position
>>>>7k/4pK1p/7B/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Junior 6.0:
>>>>
>>>>1.Bf8 e5
>>>>  =  (-0.07)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Bg7#
>>>>  +-  (#1)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Bg7#
>>>>  +-  (#1)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>
>>>>(, MyTown 18.03.2001)
>>>>
>>>>New position
>>>>8/8/8/8/6N1/5NK1/7p/7k w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Junior 6.0:
>>>>
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 6   00:00:00, tb=1
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9   00:00:00, tb=3
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12   00:00:00, tb=5
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 15   00:00:00, tb=7
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 18   00:00:00, tb=9
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21   00:00:00, tb=11
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24   00:00:00  1kN, tb=13
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 27   00:00:00  1kN, tb=15
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 30   00:00:00  1kN, tb=17
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 33   00:00:00  1kN, tb=19
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 36   00:00:00  2kN, tb=21
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 39   00:00:00  2kN, tb=23
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 42   00:00:00  2kN, tb=25
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 45   00:00:00  3kN, tb=27
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 48   00:00:00  3kN, tb=29
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 51   00:00:00  3kN, tb=31
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 54   00:00:00  4kN, tb=33
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 57   00:00:00  4kN, tb=35
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 60   00:00:00  5kN, tb=37
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 63   00:00:00  5kN, tb=39
>>>>1.Ngxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 63   00:00:00  5kN, tb=40
>>>>
>>>>(, MyTown 18.03.2001)
>>>>
>>>>New position
>>>>8/8/8/8/8/6NK/3N1p2/6k1 w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Junior 6.0:
>>>>
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 6   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9   00:00:00, tb=5
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12   00:00:00, tb=18
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 15   00:00:00  1kN, tb=32
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 18   00:00:00  1kN, tb=46
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21   00:00:00  2kN, tb=60
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24   00:00:00  2kN, tb=74
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 27   00:00:00  3kN, tb=88
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 30   00:00:00  3kN, tb=102
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 33   00:00:00  4kN, tb=116
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 36   00:00:00  4kN, tb=130
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 39   00:00:00  5kN, tb=144
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 42   00:00:00  5kN, tb=158
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 45   00:00:00  6kN, tb=172
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 48   00:00:00  7kN, tb=186
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 51   00:00:00  7kN, tb=200
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 54   00:00:00  8kN, tb=214
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 57   00:00:00  9kN, tb=228
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 60   00:00:00  9kN, tb=242
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 63   00:00:00  10kN, tb=256
>>>>1.Nh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 63   00:00:00  10kN, tb=256
>>>>
>>>>(, MyTown 18.03.2001)
>>>>
>>>>New position
>>>>7k/3N4/6KN/8/8/8/7p/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Junior 6.0:
>>>>
>>>>1.Ne5 h1Q
>>>>  ³  (-0.70)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 6   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 15   00:00:00
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 18   00:00:00  1kN
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21   00:00:00  1kN
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24   00:00:00  2kN
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 27   00:00:00  3kN
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 30   00:00:00  3kN
>>>>1.Nf7+
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 33   00:00:03  5221kN, tb=8986
>>>>
>>>>(, MyTown 18.03.2001)
>>>>
>>>>You are right that is unacceptable from a top program, it seems in general that
>>>>the chessbase products have a problem reading tb's or maby the tb's are not as
>>>>perfect as one would think.
>>>
>>>The tablebases are perfect.
>>>Junior simply have some knoweldge that is wrong in this case.
>>>
>>>I suggest that you click on engine parameters and tell Junior to forget it's
>>>knowledge about insufficient material(I know that this is a parameter for
>>>Junior5 and I guess that it is also a parameter for Junior6).
>>>
>>>Uri
>>On the clearing the Engine parameters,this does what?Please explain what this
>>does.
>
>I do not know exactly about Junior6 but I know that Junior5 has insufficient
>material parameter and you have v near it if you use the default parameters.
>
>If you use the default parameters then Junior simply know that KB vs something
>is at most a draw for the KB and if it has a draw evaluation for one move it
>simply does not search other moves because it knows that the evaluation cannot
>be better.
>
>If you have not v near this parameter Junior does not know that KB cannot win
>and it will search other move even if the evaluation is a draw for the first
>move.
>
>
>
>While on the same point,what would clearing the Hashtables do?Would it make
>>the Program stronger in its next search ?Or would it slow it down?Please clear
>>this up. Regards,Mike
>
>I guess that clearing the hash tables will tell the program to forget results of
>previous searches.
>
>It means that the program may need time again to see things that it already saw
>in the previous search.
>
>Uri
thanks ,that what i thought,just wanted an expert opinion.  mike



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