Author: Gordon Rattray
Date: 07:03:02 04/29/01
Go up one level in this thread
On April 29, 2001 at 09:32:30, Uri Blass wrote: >On April 29, 2001 at 09:15:22, Gordon Rattray wrote: > >>On April 29, 2001 at 08:41:34, Dana Turnmire wrote: >> >>>On April 29, 2001 at 08:30:42, Gordon Rattray wrote: >>> >>>>On April 29, 2001 at 08:05:40, Dana Turnmire wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 29, 2001 at 07:46:51, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>What kind of champion Kramnik really is? Did Kasparov requested to pratice >>>>>>>against Kramnik three months before Kramnik himself challenge him?. NO!, >>>>>>>therefore, if he is going to represent the human kind he should do it with >>>>>>>honor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Pichard. >>>>> >>>>> Is It honorable for the chess program team to have access to Krammik's games >>>>>on database to prepare for the openings? You sound like a spokesman for >>>>>robotkind. I support mankind. >>>>> I thought Deep Blue had an incredible advantage over Kasparov. >>>> >>>>But Kramnik *will* have access to some games by the computer too! For example, >>>>supposing Deep Junior eventually plays Kramnik, I can download many games played >>>>by Deep Junior. There is a big difference between access to games and access to >>>>the player! >>>> >>>>I don't particularly support mankind or "robotkind", but I do support fair >>>>matches and this match is turning out to be a joke. Unfortunately if Kramnik >>>>wins it, people will summarise the result as "a human beat a computer in the >>>>last man-machine match". They won't append "...but the human practiced against >>>>the program for three months prior... and there may have been a stronger program >>>>that didn't get a chance to compete... etc etc." >>>> >>>>Why did you think Deep Blue had an incredible advantage over Kasparov? Was it >>>>because in *some* (not all) aspects it was a better chess player? >>>> >>>>Gordon >>> >>> The Deep Blue team had access to years of Kasparov's games with a GM preparing >>>the opening books. Kasparov was playing completely blind. He wasn't even >>>allowed to see any games by the program. >> >>Are you suggesting that anyone entering a match must be able to supply their >>opponent a minimum number of games? >> >>It is the *player's* responsibility to conduct their own preparation, and the >>opponent should have *no* responsibility for assisting that preparation. Deep >>Blue played games prior to the Kasparov match (e.g. against David Levy and also >>other computers) - if the Kasparov team couldn't find these then that is their >>problem (although I doubt this was the case!). Alternatively, if you are >>suggesting that these games are redundant since the machine was constantly >>changing (e.g. from Deep Thought to Deep Blue, etc), then Kasparov also changes >>the way he plays and if he doesn't change much, then once again that it up to >>him. >> >>A player has to make do with what games are available. If this amounts to a >>small collection, then they have to make do with that. Prior to many human >>world championships, the players participate in secret training matches against >>"sparring partners". This allows them to test new opening ideas, etc. Should >>these games be made available to their future opponent prior to the match? I >>very much doubt it. >> >>It is pathetic for any player to request information about their opponent other >>than what is already publicly available. > >I think that it is not pathetic to ask that the program proves itself against >weaker players when the games are available for the public before getting the >right to play kramnik. > >A human who gets the right to play kramnik in a match will have to win weaker >players and kramnik can see the games so I have no problem with the fact that >kramnik want to see games something similiar to the opponent before the match. > >The main problem is if kramnik wants to get the program before the match. > >I do not know if the idea that kramnik is going to get the program before the >match is an idea of kramnik. > >If Kramnik is going to agree to this idea then he is going to lose respect from >chess players so if kramnik cares about what other people think about him he >should refuse to get the program before the match. > >Uri Unless I have misread your reply, I think we are in agreement. My point was about asking for games in addition to what is available. I agree that an opponent should qualify to play for a title, and hence play qualifying matches or tournaments. These games are generally public anyway and I have no problem with that. Asking for more, and in this case the program itself, is what I termed "pathetic". I also agree that it is the issue of asking for the program in advance that is the main issue here. Gordon
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