Author: stuart taylor
Date: 07:09:59 05/20/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 20, 2001 at 06:20:49, Chessfun wrote: >On May 20, 2001 at 06:05:09, stuart taylor wrote: > >>On May 20, 2001 at 05:17:41, Chessfun wrote: >> >>>On May 20, 2001 at 03:51:34, stuart taylor wrote: >>> >>>>On May 20, 2001 at 03:38:30, Peter Berger wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 20, 2001 at 03:18:56, stuart taylor wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 22:24:21, John Dahlem wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 21:51:18, stuart taylor wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 21:28:25, Eric Tom wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 19:06:11, stuart taylor wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2001 at 15:34:15, william penn wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>i suspect that cm6555 would still score among the top three, even against the >>>>>>>>>>>best and newest programs. Cm8000 is a rip-off since there is a noticable >>>>>>>>>>>decrease in strength from the previous more strong version 6000 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On what do you base that? >>>>>>>>>>And is it stronger than 6000 or 7000? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>And if it is a rip off, can there be any compensation, or money-back? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>S.Taylor >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Compensation? Maybe the recent amazing personalities, such as CMUtzinger and >>>>>>>>>CMFun can compensate, I don't know. I've recently fell in love with >>>>>>>>>CM8_Bendorz. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>Eric >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A clear weakening of playing strength makes it questionable as an "upgrade" in >>>>>>>>my opinion. >>>>>>>>All other extras and improvements should NEVER be at the expense of playing >>>>>>>>strength, Unless specifically made clear. If it's simply not improved, that's >>>>>>>>also not so good, but if it is EVEN WEAKER, then patches must patch up atleast >>>>>>>>that! >>>>>>>>I don't know if any other program was that much weaker than TWO upgrades >>>>>>>>earlier! >>>>>>>>S.Taylor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It's a _different_ engine, I don't know if they ever claimed it was stronger, >>>>>>>and if they didn't, there is no reason to even _think_ of compensation. If they >>>>>>>did, I personally still wouldn't feel cheated as long as the thing isn't some >>>>>>>random mover or something like that (they added features, that is enough to call >>>>>>>it a new version). Also, I haven't seen any cm6000-cm8000 matches published, >>>>>>>and until someone does, I suggest everyone stop assuming 8000 is weaker than >>>>>>>6000 anyway. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John >>>>>> >>>>>>As I have said, There are sooo many results reported on this forum, that I don't >>>>>>see we need to wait for something to be "published". >>>>>>Next year will be too late to ask for a new patch for CM8000. >>>>>>S.Taylor >>>>> >>>>>I don't follow - I have read several of the Chessmaster posts, too and haven't >>>>>seen anything suggesting that CM8000 _isn't_ much stronger than CM6000 . >>>>> >>>>>IMHO there are two possible explanations for the disappointment with the CM8000 >>>>>results : >>>>> >>>>>a.) CM loses some match - then an alternative personality is created and >>>>>surprise : it scores better - then this personality is tested . >>>>> >>>>>Result reports usually look like this : >>>>> >>>>>Octopus - 37.0/56 >>>>>Fortress - 36.5 >>>>>Devourer - 31.0 >>>>>8555 - 29.5 >>>>>Omega - 29.0 >>>>>8777 - 29.0 >>>>>Kiwi(Banks3) - 28.5 >>>>>Deep CM - 28.0 >>>>>Rudidio(KKND)- 27.5 >>>>>Utzinger - 26.5 >>>>>Titan - 26.5 >>>>>Extra - 24.5 >>>>>Chessmaster16- 24.0 >>>>>El Rey - 21.5 >>>>>Mg1 - 21.0 >>>>> >>>>>I can't draw any conclusions out of this result , can you ? >>>>> >>>>>The only trend I got so far is that a higher value for SS is better at longer >>>>>time controls again. >>>>> >>>>>b.) Maybe CM6000 is worse than its results in the SSDF suggest - this might very >>>>>well be the case : it played the minimum number of games necessary and it played >>>>>_very_ few games against other top programs . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>CM8000 really scored bad against Fritz and partly Junior ; I am looking forward >>>>>to a match against the Tigers - it seems to do quite OK against them in my >>>>>basement, especially against Gambit Tiger . >>>>> >>>>>pete >>>> >>>>I'm sorry if you I read things wrongly, but I thought it was quite obvious to >>>>daily readers of this forum. >>>>There are countless examples, so don't say what I'm missing out when I just >>>>quote one recent example, which is that CM8000 got a minus score against Junior >>>>5, whereas CM6000 beat Junior 5, 2-0.[both are in official testings] >>>> I could dig up much much more, if I spent some time over it. >>>>S.Taylor >>> >>>You make all these statements yet your first post; >>>http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?170600 >>>in this thread indicates that you know nothing? >>> >>>Sarah. >> >>http://www.icdchess.com/forums/1/message.shtml?170612 >>Sarah, >>whew! You do your homework very well! >>I was probably refering to the above post (with a slightly different heading) > >Well as you can see by the numbers the link I posted, you wrote first. >Where you question whether CM8K is "stronger than 6000 or 7000?" >and then write. "And if it is a rip off". Since you then later express the >opinion that CM8K is weaker why would you write "And if" > >Also how could your opinion switch so rapidly there is only a difference >of 12 posts or about 2 hours later when you wrote the above then 2 hours >later expressed that CM8K was weaker. > >>for what It's worth, and, if it is the right address. >>I base myself mainly on inceasent reports posted here. But they are not always >>written in a bad light e.g. It was always written about as a wonderful thing >>that CM8000 was doing so well against an amateur program (I think anNon, or >>whatever), also how good it was against Shredder 2, (in which there was even a >>hardware advantage to Shredder?) And other such things which I read not so well >>into it. And as I said, 6000 did MUCH MUCH better against Junior 5 than did >>8000. > >Actually against Shredder2 the CM8K had the hardware advantage. >It scored well against SOS on equal hardware. >As for the single 2 game result against Junior 5 naturally that >can be taken with a pinch of salt. >Do you own the CM6000 yourself? > >Sarah. YES! you're right again!!! It's in the numbers! But, originally I wanted to hear from the original poster, but I always agreed with him anyway, but I felt it was a shame to say something like that without some back-up, if he had any (by way of new results), or atleast to indicate what he was refering to! I was also wondering if 6555 was an upgrade or patch to 6000, and if indeed even stronger than 6000, then I might really want to buy it as I never had CM6000. So why was I after CM, if I'm so concerned with playing strength? Because I also wanted a program with great training features by way of minute increments in rating gradations, which I heard that CM was best for. Shimon
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