Author: Mark Young
Date: 05:20:57 06/03/01
Go up one level in this thread
On June 03, 2001 at 07:25:35, Slater Wold wrote:
>On June 02, 2001 at 20:21:53, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On June 02, 2001 at 11:06:40, Slater Wold wrote:
>>
>>>This is the game:
>>>
>>>
>>>[Event "ICC 30 10 u"]
>>>[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
>>>[Date "2001.06.02"]
>>>[Round "-"]
>>>[White "Petrovich"]
>>>[Black "Project"]
>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>[ICCResult "Black resigns"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2498"]
>>>[BlackElo "2523"]
>>>[Opening "QGD: exchange, positional line, 5...c6"]
>>>[ECO "D35"]
>>>[NIC "QO.16"]
>>>[Time "09:05:56"]
>>>[TimeControl "1800+10"]
>>>
>>>1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8.
>>>Bd3 O-O 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. h3 Bc8 11. Qc2 Bd6 12. Ne5 Qe7 13. f4 Qd8 14. O-O Be7
>>>15. Rae1 Nbd7 16. g4 Nb6 17. Qg2 Be6 18. Bb1 Re8 19. Qc2 Kf8 20. g5 Bxh3 21.
>>>gxf6 Bxf6 22. Bxf6 Qxf6 23. Rf3 Qh4 24. Qf2 Qxf2+ 25. Kxf2 Bc8 26. Rg3 f6
>>>27. Ng6+ Kf7 28. b3 a5 29. a4 Bd7 30. f5 Nc8 31. Reg1 Rg8 32. Nf4 Nd6 33.
>>>Nh5 Ne8 34. Bd3 Kf8 35. e4 dxe4 36. Bc4 Rh8 37. Nxg7 Nd6 38. Ne6+ Bxe6 39.
>>>Bxe6 e3+ 40. Kxe3 Re8 41. Ne4 Rxe6 42. fxe6 Nf5+ 43. Kf4 Nxg3 44. Rxg3 h5
>>>45. Nxf6 h4 46. Rh3 Ke7 47. Ke5 {Black resigns} 1-0
>>
>>Deep Shredder did not play a "patzer" opening. Deep Shredder played an awful TN
>>10..Bc8?. It is known that 10..Bxf3! leads to swift equality for black. This
>>game looks to be a one move loss for Shredder. Other programs I feel would have
>>found 10..Bxf3! even without book help and drawing or winning this game.
>
>
>Interesting. D.S. actually looked at Bxf3 and almost immediatly ignored it.
>Here is the output from the game:
>
>rn1q1rk1/pp2bpp1/2p2n1p/3p4/3P2bB/2NBPN1P/PP3PP1/R2QK2R b KQ -
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 8 |*R*|*N*| |*Q*| |*R*|*K*|:::
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 7 |*P*|*P*|:::| |*B*|*P*|*P*|
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 6 | |:::|*P*|:::| |*N*| |*P*
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 5 |:::| |:::|*P*|:::| |:::|
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 4 | |:::| | P | |:::|*B*| B
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 3 |:::| | N | B | P | N |:::| P
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 2 | P | P | |:::| | P | P |:::
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> 1 | R | |:::| Q | K | |:::| R
> +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
> a b c d e f g h
>Deep Shredder
>best move: Qd8-b6 time: 1:05.594 min n/s: 441.824 CPU 198.7% nodes:
>28.953.198
> 26:13 min to go (1:04, 4:03)
> 1.00 0:00 +0.34-- 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Nh5 12.Bxe7 Nf6 (6)
> 1.00 0:00 +0.14 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Nh5 12.Bxe7 Nf6 (30)
> 2.00 0:00 +0.14 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Qb6 (506)
> 3.00 0:00 +0.14 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Qb6 (739)
> 4.00 0:00 +0.16 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Qb6 12.O-O-O a5 13.Bg3 (6.267) 195.8
> 5.00 0:00 -0.09-- 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Qb6 12.O-O-O a5 13.Bg3 (6.612) 206.6
> 5.00 0:00 -0.15 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Qb6 12.O-O-O Nbd7 13.Kb1 (9.953) 211.7
> 5.00 0:00 -0.14++ 10...Bh5 11.O-O Qb6 12.Qe2 Bxf3 13.gxf3 (13.420) 285.5
> 5.00 0:00 -0.09 10...Bh5 11.O-O Qb6 12.Na4 Qc7 (15.223) 323.8
> 6.00 0:00 -0.06 10...Bh5 11.O-O Qb6 12.Rb1 Nbd7 13.Qe2 Bd6 14.Bf5 (39.779)
>361.6
> 7.01 0:00 -0.09 10...Bh5 11.O-O Qb6 12.Rb1 Nbd7 13.Qe2 Rfe8 (109.933) 467.8
> 8.01 0:01 -0.13 10...Bh5 11.Qb3 b6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.g4 Bg6 14.Bxg6 fxg6
>15.O-O Nd7 16.Rac1 Qe7 (630.568) 486.1
> 9.01 0:02 -0.14 10...Bh5 11.Qb3 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qb6 13.Qxb6 axb6 14.O-O Na6
>15.Bf5 Nb4 (1.168.166) 476.0
> 10.01 0:05 -0.18 10...Bh5 11.Qb3 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qb6 13.Qxb6 axb6 14.O-O Nbd7
>15.Bg3 Rfe8 16.Rac1 b5 17.Bc7 (2.404.451) 469.1
> 11.01 0:11 -0.18 10...Bh5 11.Qb3 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qb6 13.Qxb6 axb6 14.O-O-O Na6
>15.Kb1 Nb4 16.Bf5 Rfe8 17.Rhg1 (5.570.610) 470.9
> 12.01 0:32 -0.27 10...Bh5 11.Qb3 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qd7 13.O-O-O Na6 14.Kb1 g5
>15.Bg3 Nb4 16.Ne2 Nxd3 17.Qxd3 (15.066.251) 458.4
> 12.03 0:42 -0.26++ 10...Be6 11.Qb3 Qb6 12.Qxb6 axb6 13.O-O Na6 14.a3 Rac8
>15.Na4 b5 16.Nc5 (19.434.355) 460.3
> 12.03 0:56 -0.25 10...Be6 11.Qb3 b6 12.O-O c5 13.Qa4 c4 14.Be2 Qd7 15.Qxd7
>Nbxd7 16.Rac1 Rac8 (25.509.688) 448.3
> 12.04 1:14 -0.24++ 10...Bc8 11.O-O Re8 12.Bg3 Bd6 13.Ne5 Qe7 14.Qb3 Nbd7
>15.Na4 (32.973.269) 443.1
> 12.04 1:19 -0.24 10...Bc8 11.O-O Re8 12.Rb1 Qb6 13.Qe2 Nbd7 14.Bg3 Ne4
>15.Bxe4 h5 16.Na4 (35.066.237) 440.8
>best move: Bg4-c8 time: 1:23.625 min n/s: 442.160 CPU 199.4% nodes:
>36.948.273
>
>
>It saw that 10...Bxf3 scored -0.15 in 0:00 seconds. However it searched
>10...Bc8 for approx. 19 seconds and decided it's score of -0.24 was better. It
>searched for a total of 1:23 seconds. So I decided to see if you were right,
>and let some other top engines come up with a move here, with the same exact
>amount of time I had on my clock. Here's what I got:
>
>
>
>Hiarcs 7.32
>rn1q1rk1/pp2bpp1/2p2n1p/3p4/3P2bB/2NBPN1P/PP3PP1/R2QK2R b KQ - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:
>
>1...Bh5
> ² (0.57) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.0-0
> ± (0.95) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3
> ² (0.63) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3
> ² (0.63) Depth: 3/6 00:00:00
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 g5 3.Bg3 Bb4
> ± (0.86) Depth: 3/6 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.0-0 Nbd7
> ± (0.80) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.0-0 Nbd7
> ± (0.84) Depth: 4/11 00:00:00
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Nbd7 3.0-0 Qc7
> ± (0.76) Depth: 4/11 00:00:00
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Qb6
> ² (0.63) Depth: 5/12 00:00:00 15kN
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Qb6
> ± (0.84) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 52kN
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Qb6
> ± (0.83) Depth: 7/23 00:00:01 215kN
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Re8 3.0-0 Ne4 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Qg4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Nd7
> ± (0.78) Depth: 8/25 00:00:06 939kN
>1...Bxf3 2.Qxf3 Nbd7 3.0-0 Bd6 4.Bg3 Qc7 5.Ne2
> ± (0.79) Depth: 9/27 00:00:27 3611kN
>1...Bh5 2.Qc2 Bxf3 3.gxf3 Na6 4.Bxf6 Bxf6 5.Bxa6
> ² (0.70) Depth: 9/29 00:00:48 6085kN
>
>It moved Bh5 - however DID look at Bxf3 a lot deeper. However it decided Bh5
>was the move to make in :48 seconds.
>
>
>
>Fritz 6
>rn1q1rk1/pp2bpp1/2p2n1p/3p4/3P2bB/2NBPN1P/PP3PP1/R2QK2R b KQ - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Fritz 6:
>
>1...Bh5 2.Bxf6 Bxf6 3.0-0
> = (0.25) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.Bxf6 Bxf6 3.0-0
> = (0.25) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.Bxf6 Bxf6 3.0-0
> = (0.25) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.Bxf6 Bxf6 3.0-0
> = (0.25) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>1...Bh5 2.0-0 Re8 3.Bg3
> = (0.00) Depth: 4/14 00:00:00 2kN
>1...Bh5 2.Bxf6 Bxf6 3.0-0 Re8
> = (0.19) Depth: 5/14 00:00:00 11kN
>1...Bh5 2.Qb3 Bxf3 3.gxf3 Qd7 4.Bxf6 Bxf6 5.0-0-0
> = (0.19) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 52kN
>1...Bh5 2.Qb3 Qc8 3.Bg3 Nbd7 4.Rc1 Bxf3 5.gxf3
> = (0.25) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 148kN
>1...Bh5 2.Qb3 b5 3.Ne5 b4 4.Ne2 Bxe2 5.Bxe2 Re8
> ² (0.34) Depth: 8/22 00:00:00 311kN
>1...Be6!
> ² (0.31) Depth: 8/22 00:00:00 349kN
>1...Be6! 2.Qb3 b6 3.0-0 c5 4.Qc2 Re8 5.dxc5 bxc5
> = (0.25) Depth: 8/22 00:00:00 440kN
>1...Be6 2.Qb3 b6 3.0-0 c5 4.Qc2 Nbd7 5.Rac1 Re8 6.dxc5
> = (0.25) Depth: 9/32 00:00:01 810kN
>1...Be6 2.0-0 Nbd7 3.Bg3 c5 4.dxc5 Nxc5 5.Rc1 Nxd3 6.Qxd3
> = (0.22) Depth: 10/32 00:00:02 2077kN
>1...Be6 2.0-0 Nbd7 3.Qb3 Qb6 4.Qxb6 Nxb6 5.Rac1 Rfe8 6.Ne5
> = (0.22) Depth: 11/30 00:00:05 4539kN
>1...Be6 2.0-0 Nbd7 3.Qb3 Qb6 4.Qxb6 Nxb6 5.Rac1 Rfe8 6.Ne5
> = (0.22) Depth: 12/30 00:00:10 8364kN
>1...Be6 2.0-0 Nbd7 3.Qb3 b6 4.Rac1 c5 5.Qc2 c4 6.Bf5
> = (0.22) Depth: 13/37 00:00:27 23080kN
>1...Be6 2.0-0 Nbd7 3.Qb3 Qb6 4.Qxb6 axb6 5.Bg3 b5 6.Ne5
> = (0.22) Depth: 14/37 00:00:56 47783kN
>
>A complete new spin on things. And never once looks at Bxf3.
>
>
>
>Gambit Tiger 2.0
>00:00:00.3 -0.34 8 95060 Bh5 Qc2 Bxf3 gxf3 Bb4 Bg3 Bxc3+ Qxc3 Nbd7
>00:00:00.5 -0.30 8 133397 Bh5 Qc2 Bxf3 gxf3 Na6 Bxa6 bxa6 Bg3 Qe8 O-O
>00:00:01.7 -0.16 9 385402 Bh5 Qc2 Bxf3 gxf3 Na6 a3 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Bf5 Qe8 Bxf6
>Bxf6 Nxd5
>00:00:03.8 -0.32 10 759243 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Qc2 Na6 a3 Nc7 Bg3 Ne6
>00:00:07.2 -0.24 11 1654134 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Qc2 Na6 a3 Nc7 Bg3 Rac8 Be5
>00:00:18.2 -0.18 12 4261419 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Qc2 Na6 Bf5 Nb4 Qb1 Qc7 a3 Na6
>00:00:39.2 -0.20 13 9130051 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Qc2 Na6 Bf5 Qd8 a3 Nh5 Bxe7
>Qxe7 Bh7+ Kh8
>00:00:44.3 -0.20 13 10351719 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Qc2 Na6 Bf5 Qd8 a3 Nh5 Bxe7
>Qxe7 Bh7+ Kh8
>
>Chooses Bh5 in 44.3 seconds.
>
>
>
>Chess Tiger 14.0
>00:00:00.6 -0.24 7 86999 Bh5 O-O Qb6 Qc2 Bxf3 gxf3 Nbd7
>00:00:00.1 -0.16 7 92630 Bh5 O-O Ne4 Bxe7 Qxe7 Re1 Nxc3 bxc3 Nd7
>00:00:00.8 -0.14 8 158470 Bh5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 Qxd6 O-O Nbd7 Re1 Qe6
>00:00:02.3 -0.04 9 540661 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 Qxb7 Bxg2 Rh2 Na6 Rxg2 Nb4
>00:00:04.7 -0.08 10 1053380 Bh5 Bg3 Bd6 Bxd6 Qxd6 O-O Nbd7 Qe2 Nb6 b3 Qe6
>00:00:09.3 -0.10 11 2183103 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Bg3 Na6 a3 Nh7 f4 Nf6 O-O
>00:00:21.2 -0.04 12 5077106 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Bg3 Na6 a3 c5 Qb5 Qxb5 Nxb5 c4
>Bf5
>00:00:47.1 -0.04 13 11194501 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Bg3 Na6 a3 c5 Qb5 Qxb5 Nxb5
>c4 Bf5 Nb8
>00:00:47.1 -0.04 13 11194501 Bh5 Qb3 Bxf3 gxf3 Qd7 Bg3 Na6 a3 c5 Qb5 Qxb5 Nxb5
>c4 Bf5 Nb8
>
>Almost the same exact time and PV as Gambit Tiger 2.0.
>
>
>
>Crafty also plays Be6.
>
>
>3 Bh5's and 2 Be6's. No Bxf3. However, Bc8 was without a doubt worse off than
>any of these engine's moves. But it's clear, none would agree with you on Bxf3.
Programs are not the best when it comes to opening play, seems they over value
the bishop even at the cost of many a lost tempo, which is death in a position
like this. Theory shows the best move to be Bxf3, I tried some programs you did
not try, and Junior 6 did prefer Bxf3 so not all programs slip in this position.
>
>
>Slate
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