Author: Uri Blass
Date: 04:47:04 09/08/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 08, 2001 at 07:34:16, Peter Berger wrote: >On September 08, 2001 at 05:07:31, Odd Gunnar Malin wrote: > >>On September 07, 2001 at 23:10:53, Peter McKenzie wrote: >> >>>On September 07, 2001 at 22:08:27, Odd Gunnar Malin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>I don't have his position but I have another 'quadrat position' like the Fine 70 >>>>with a not so obvious first move, well it is Kb1 but that must be a coincidence >>>>:) >>>> >>>>[D]2k5/2p2p2/2p1p3/2P1PpP1/1p1P1p2/1P3P2/1K3P2/8 w - - 0 1 >>>>White wins. 1.Kb1! >>> >>>Are you sure? >>>I ran it through LambChop, and the prefered move was switching between Kb1 and >>>Kc2 with a score of around 0.4 for each move. Then at depth 25 I got a fail >>>high on Kc2, returning a score of 1.6. >>> >>>As I write, the same score has popped up for Kc2 at depth 26 too... >>> >> >>The position is from Averbach's book on pawn endgames. In my german version is >>in on p.378. >>I have tried to follow other path than that Averbach's solution but they all end >>in draw. >> >>Here is his solution. >>The quadrat: >>White: e2=1, d2=2, e1=3, d1=4 >>Black: b7=1, a7=2, b8=3, a8=4 >> >>You can shifting this quadrat two sqaures so. f.ex white also has a quadrat on >>c2=1, b2=2, c1=3, b1=4. >> >>Die kürzesten Wege bestehen hier aus jeweils acht Feldern: >>c4-d3-e2-f1-g2-h3-h4-h5 bzw. a5-a6-b7-c8-d7(d8)-e7(e8)-f8-g7. >>Die Paare c4-d3 und h4-h5 können nicht als Basisfelder genommen werden, weil sie >>kein Verbindungsfeld besitzen. Zur Wahl stehen die Felderpaare d3-e2 (a6-b7 bei >>Schwarz) oder e2-f1 (b7-c8 bei Schwarz). In beiden Fällen erhälten wir das >>Quadratsystem mit übereinstimmenden Hauptzonen. >>1.Kb1! (jetzt muss Schwarz das Feld 1 oder 3 betreten) 1...Kb8 2.Kc1 Ka8 3.Kd1 >>Kb8 4.Ke1 Kb7 5.Ke2, und Weiss gewinnt. >> >>Running through www.freetranslation.com: >> >>The shortest ways consist here of respectively eight fields: >>c4-d3-e2-f1-g2-h3-h4-h5 and/or a5-a6-b7-c8-d7(d8)-e7(e8)-f8-g7. The couples >>c4-d3 and h4-h5 cannot be taken as a basis field because they possess no >>connection field. To the choice, the field couples d3-e2 (a6-b7 stand in black) >>or e2-f1 (b7-c8 in black). In both felling receiving we the square system with >>übereinstimmenden head zone. 1.Kb1! (Now must black the field 1 or 3 enter) >>1...Kb8 2.Kc1 KA8 3.Kd1 KB8 4.Ke1 KB7 5.Ke2, and white win. >> >>I'm sure V.Deepeven or A.Silver could explain this theorie, I myself must have >>some reread of it before I lay out on such a trip. >> >>Odd Gunnar > >This theorie sounds a little like dark magic to me still . Some more empirical >data : > >Engine: Deep Shredder >von Stefan Meyer-Kahlen >Position: 2k5/2p2p2/2p1p3/2P1PpP1/1p1P1p2/1P3P2/1K3P2/8 w - - 0 1 > > 27.01 13:05 +2.08 1.Kc2 Kb7 2.Kd2 Ka7 3.Ke2 Kb7 4.Kf1 Kc8 5.Kg2 Kd7 6.Kh3 Ke7 >7.Kh4 Kf8 8.Kh5 Kg7 9.g6 fxg6+ 10.Kg5 Kf7 11.Kh6 g5 12.Kxg5 Kg7 13.Kxf4 Kg6 >14.Kg3 (414.421.335) 527.4 > 27.02 25:13 +2.09++ 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Kb7 3.Kc2 Ka7 4.Kd2 Ka6 5.Kd3 Kb5 6.Ke2 >Ka5 7.Kf1 f6 8.exf6 Kb5 9.g6 Ka6 10.Ke1 Kb7 11.Kd1 Ka7 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.g7 e5 >14.g8D (883.802.667) 583.9 > 27.02 37:54 +2.13 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Kb7 3.Kc2 Ka7 4.Kd2 Ka6 5.Kd3 Kb5 6.Ke2 Ka5 >7.Kf1 f6 8.exf6 Kb5 9.g6 Ka6 10.Ke1 Kb7 11.Kd1 Ka7 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.g7 e5 14.g8D >(1.375.142.174) 604.6 > 28.01 55:26 +2.13 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Kb7 3.Kc2 Ka7 4.Kd2 Ka6 5.Kd3 Kb5 6.Ke2 Ka5 >7.Kf1 f6 8.exf6 Kb5 9.g6 Ka6 10.Ke1 Kb7 11.Kd1 Ka7 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.g7 e5 14.g8D >(2.005.929.905) 603.0 > 29.01 59:12 +2.13 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Kb7 3.Kc2 Ka7 4.Kd2 Ka6 5.Kd3 Kb5 6.Ke2 Ka5 >7.Kf1 f6 8.exf6 Kb5 9.g6 Ka6 10.Ke1 Kb7 11.Kd1 Ka7 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.g7 e5 14.g8D >(2.137.706.333) 601.7 > 30.01 99:26 +2.38++ 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Kb7 3.Kc2 Ka7 4.Kd2 Ka6 5.Kd3 Kb5 6.Ke2 >Ka5 7.Kf1 f6 8.exf6 Kb5 9.g6 Ka6 10.Ke1 Kb7 11.Kd1 Ka7 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.g7 e5 >14.g8D (3.596.581.405) 602.7 > 30.01 99:38 +2.38 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.g6 fxg6 3.Kc1 Ka8 4.d5 cxd5 5.Kd2 Kb7 6.c6+ >Kxc6 7.Ke2 Kb6 8.Kf1 g5 9.Kg2 g4 10.fxg4 (3.604.795.374) 602.9 > 31.01 178:25 +2.63++ 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Ka8 3.Kd1 Kb8 4.Ke1 Ka8 5.Kf1 Ka7 6.Kg2 >Kb7 7.Kh3 f6 8.exf6 Kc8 9.g6 Kd7 10.g7 e5 11.g8D exd4 12.f7 Ke7 13.f8D+ Kd7 >14.Dxf5+ (6.231.759.861) 582.0 > 31.01 251:15 +3.13++ 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Ka8 3.Kd1 Kb8 4.Ke1 Ka8 5.Kf1 Ka7 6.Kg2 >Kb7 7.Kh3 f6 8.exf6 Kc8 9.g6 Kd7 10.g7 e5 11.g8D exd4 12.f7 Ke7 13.f8D+ Kd7 >14.Dxf5+ (8.417.122.642) 558.3 > 31.01 317:51 +3.43 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Ka8 3.Kd1 Kb8 4.Ke1 Kb7 5.Ke2 Ka7 6.Kf1 f6 >7.exf6 Ka6 8.g6 Kb5 9.Ke1 e5 10.dxe5 Kxc5 11.Kd1 Kb5 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.Kc2 Kb6 >14.Kd2 (10.673.219.021) 559.6 > 32.01 410:11 +3.67 1.Kb1 Kb8 2.Kc1 Ka8 3.Kd1 Kb8 4.Ke1 Kb7 5.Ke2 Ka7 6.Kf1 f6 >7.exf6 Ka6 8.g6 Kb5 9.Ke1 e5 10.dxe5 Kxc5 11.Kd1 Kb5 12.Kc1 Ka6 13.Kc2 Kb6 >14.Kd2 (13.379.210.943) 543.6 I look at the main line and simply do not understand, 6...f6 is an illogical move 8.f7 is more logical than 8.g6 All the moves in the main line are legal but seems to be random moves. The main line does not encourage me to use shredder at long time control. I suspect that shredder has a bug at long time control after seeing it and it encourages me to continue to use Deep Fritz as my default program for correspondence games. Note that I do not expect programs to find the best moves in the 6th move of the main line but I expect them at least to see something that can be a result of relatively short search. 6...f6 cannot be a result of short search. Uri
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.