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Subject: Re: Another example of very deep tactics that Computers cannot solve

Author: Leo Dijksman

Date: 11:42:39 12/07/01

Go up one level in this thread


On December 07, 2001 at 14:09:56, Uri Blass wrote:

>On December 07, 2001 at 13:53:01, Leo Dijksman wrote:
>
>>On December 07, 2001 at 12:48:22, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>
>>>The following position occured in one of the oldest Correspondence games
>>>played in America:
>>>[D] 2kr3r/ppp2ppp/1b3nq1/4p2b/1PB1P3/2P1B3/P1QN1PPP/R4RK1  b   - 0 1
>>>This game was played in 1840.
>>>Here black played 15...Rxd2!! Game finished with 16.Qxd2 Nxe4 17.Qc1 Bf3
>>>18.g3 h5! 19.Bd5 h4 20.Bxe4 Qxe4 21.Bxb6 Qg4 22.Qe3 axb6 23.R(f)-b1  e4
>>>24.Qe1 f5! 25.Rb2 f4 26.R(a)-b1  Black announced Mate in Some number of moves.
>>>Fritz 6 and chessmaster 8000 donot see 15...Rxd2!! No matter how long one runs
>>>the position.
>>>Does your program see 15...Rxd2!!!.Althuogh Tactics is the area that Computers
>>>are naturally strong ;it is interesting that one still runs into tactical
>>>positions which programs cannot solve.Please indicate your result.
>>
>>Quark analises:
>>
>>Input to Quark: analyze
>> 1     48       1        687 b6e3
>> 2     48       1        885 b6e3 f2e3
>> 3     69       1       1767 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5
>> 4     78       3       8530 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 g1f2
>> 5    102       6      16682 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 a1e1 c7c6
>> 5    102       8      21536 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 a1e1 c7c6
>> 6     78      12      37204 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1
>> 6     78      15      51210 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1
>> 7     96      22      78308 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6f6
>> 7     96      32     132901 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6f6
>> 8     84      61     251362 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6c6 c4d5
>> 8     84      85     385845 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6c6 c4d5
>> 9     81     425    1609169 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6g5 a2a4 g5h4
>> 9     81     577    2391642 b6e3 f2e3 g6h6 f1e1 f6g4 d2f1 h6g5 a2a4 g5h4
>>10     93    1238    5043519 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 f1e1 d8d6 a2a4 h8d8 d2f1 d6c6 c4d3
>>10     93    1375    5763372 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 f1e1 d8d6 a2a4 h8d8 d2f1 d6c6 c4d3
>>11    111    2097    8959777 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 f1e1 d8d6 c4f1 f6g4 d2c4 d6f6 c2a4
>>a7a6
>>11    111    2552   11193988 b6e3 f2e3 g6g5 f1e1 d8d6 c4f1 f6g4 d2c4 d6f6 c2a4
>>a7a6
>>12    109    4584   20252371 b6e3 f2e3 d8d7 f1f2 h8d8 h2h3 g6g3 d2f1 g3h4 g2g4
>>h5g6 c4b5
>>12    109    5878   27069281 b6e3 f2e3 d8d7 f1f2 h8d8 h2h3 g6g3 d2f1 g3h4 g2g4
>>h5g6 c4b5
>>13    118    9915   44695206 b6e3 f2e3 d8d7 h2h3 g6g5 a1e1 g5g3 g1h1 h8d8 d2b3
>>c7c6 a2a4 h7h6
>>13    119   14334   68847269 d8d2 !
>>13    122   15096   72748195 d8d2 c2d2 f6e4 d2d3 h8d8 d3b1 b6e3 f2e3 d8d2 g2g3
>>e4c3 b1g6 f7g6
>>13    122   16963   82356307 d8d2 c2d2 f6e4 d2d3 h8d8 d3b1 b6e3 f2e3 d8d2 g2g3
>>e4c3 b1g6 f7g6
>>Input to Quark (in pondering): exit
>>Input to Quark: force
>>Input to Quark: quit
>>
>>Leo.
>
>I think that it is  a positional problem because programs can find the move for
>positional reasons
>
>It is interesting to see the evaluation of quark after 1...Rxd2 2.Qxd2 Nxe4
>3.Qc1 that was in the game.

Here it is:

[D]2k4r/ppp2ppp/1b4q1/4p2b/1PB1n3/2P1B3/P4PPP/R1Q2RK1 b - - 0 3

Input to Quark: setboard 2kr3r/ppp2ppp/1b3nq1/4p2b/1PB1P3/2P1B3/P1QN1PPP/R4RK1 b
- - 0 1
Input to Quark: d8d2
Input to Quark: c2d2
Input to Quark: f6e4
Input to Quark: d2c1
Input to Quark: analyze
 1     29       0        422 h8d8
 2     19       1       4086 h5f3 e3b6
 3     46       2      10016 h5f3 g2g3 h8d8
 4     35       4      14018 h5f3 g2g3 h8d8 c1a3
 4     35       5      16438 h5f3 g2g3 h8d8 c1a3
 5     35       7      24869 h5f3 g2g3 h8d8 c1a3 b6e3
 5     37       9      27920 g6c6 !
 5     67      10      32174 g6c6 c4d3 e4c3 d3f5 c8b8 f2f3
 5     67      12      37994 g6c6 c4d3 e4c3 d3f5 c8b8 f2f3
 6     61      17      55657 g6c6 c4d3 e4c3 e3b6 c7b6 c1g5
 6     61      22      76584 g6c6 c4d3 e4c3 e3b6 c7b6 c1g5
 7     31      26      89455 g6c6 ?
 7     19      43     152177 g6c6 e3b6 c7b6 c4d3 e4c3 c1g5
 7     19     142     586042 g6c6 e3b6 c7b6 c4d3 e4c3 c1g5
 8    -11     156     638321 g6c6 ?
 8    -13     176     731106 g6c6 e3b6 a7b6 c4d3 e4c3 c1g5 h5g6 d3g6
 8    -12     194     818778 h5f3 !
 8      5     251    1050801 h5f3 g2g3 g6c6 e3b6 c6c4 b6a7 e4c3 c1e3
 8      6     302    1262472 h8d8 !
 8     30     364    1521361 h8d8 e3b6 c7b6 c1e3 e4d2 e3h3 h5g4 c4f7 g4h3
 8     30     459    1995198 h8d8 e3b6 c7b6 c1e3 e4d2 e3h3 h5g4 c4f7 g4h3
 9     32     934    4050398 h8d8 f1e1 h5f3 g2g3 g6h5 h2h4 a7a6 c1c2 b6e3
 9     33    1057    4583814 h5f3 !
 9    133    1222    5210388 h5f3 !!
 9    148    1363    5814323 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1 d5c4 c1a3
 9    148    1413    6059674 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1 d5c4 c1a3
10    143    1680    7463940 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 e3f2 b6f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1
d5c4 c1e3
10    143    1801    8095364 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 e3f2 b6f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1
d5c4 c1e3
11    113    2058    9349549 h5f3 ?
11     92    2372   10949052 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 e3f2 b6f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1
d5c4 c1e3 a7a6
11     92    2819   13301809 h5f3 g2g3 g6f5 f1e1 e4f2 e3f2 b6f2 g1f2 f3d5 f2g1
d5c4 c1e3 a7a6
12     62    3502   16763308 h5f3 ?
12     55    7149   33768714 h5f3 g2g3 g6c6 c4f7 e4c3 f1e1 c3e2 e1e2 f3e2 c1c6
b7c6 f7e6 c8b7 a2a4 b6e3
12     55   10646   51347923 h5f3 g2g3 g6c6 c4f7 e4c3 f1e1 c3e2 e1e2 f3e2 c1c6
b7c6 f7e6 c8b7 a2a4 b6e3
13     73   17523   83333994 h5f3 g2g3 h7h5 c4d3 h5h4 d3e4 f3e4 f1e1 h4g3 f2g3
g6f5 c1d2 h8d8
13     73   23894  115022015 h5f3 g2g3 h7h5 c4d3 h5h4 d3e4 f3e4 f1e1 h4g3 f2g3
g6f5 c1d2 h8d8
14     43   53311  265969156 h5f3 ?
14     53   57219  284876404 h5f3 g2g3 h7h5 e3b6 h5h4 c1e3 h4g3 e3f3 g3f2 g1h1
e4g3 h1g2 g3f1 g2f1 g6g1 f1e2 c7b6 f3f5 c8d8
14     53   94522  474702886 h5f3 g2g3 h7h5 e3b6 h5h4 c1e3 h4g3 e3f3 g3f2 g1h1
e4g3 h1g2 g3f1 g2f1 g6g1 f1e2 c7b6 f3f5 c8d8
Input to Quark (in pondering): exit
Input to Quark: force
Input to Quark: quit

Leo.

>
>yace (only material pawn 0.8 knight 3.4 bishop 3.5 rook 5) start to see bad news
>for black after more than 30 minutes and the line 3...Bf3 4.g3 h5 but I did not
>check if all the moves are forced and I did not give yace to complete iteration
>15
>
>New position
>[D]2k4r/ppp2pp1/1b4q1/4p2p/1PB1n3/2P1BbP1/P4P1P/R1Q2RK1 w - h6 0 1
>
>Analysis by Yace 0.99.56:
>
>5.Bxb6 cxb6
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>5.Bxb6 cxb6
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
>5.Bxb6 cxb6 6.Bd5 h4
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>5.Bxb6 cxb6 6.Bd5 h4 7.Bc4
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
>5.Bxb6 cxb6 6.Re1 Qf6 7.Be2 Bxe2
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 5   00:00:00  8kN
>5.Bxb6 cxb6 6.Re1 Qf6 7.Be2 Bxe2 8.Rxe2
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 6   00:00:00  30kN
>5.Bxb6 cxb6 6.Re1 Qf6 7.Be2 Bxe2 8.Rxe2 Nd6
>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 7   00:00:00  61kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Re1 hxg3 7.fxg3 Nxg3 8.Re2 Nxe2+ 9.Kf1
>  ²  (0.40)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  553kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Qe3 hxg3 7.Qxf3 gxf2+ 8.Kh1 Ng3+ 9.Kg2 Ne4+ 10.Kh1 Rxh2+ 11.Kxh2 Qf6
>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  575kN
>5.Bd3 Bxe3 6.Qxe3 Nxc3 7.Bxg6 Ne2+ 8.Qxe2 Bxe2 9.Bxf7 h4
>  =  (0.01)   Depth: 8   00:00:01  575kN
>5.Bd3 h4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.Re1 hxg3 8.fxg3 Qh6 9.Bxb6 Qxb6+ 10.Kf1
>  ²  (0.70)   Depth: 8   00:00:02  1088kN
>5.Bd3 h4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.Re1 hxg3 8.fxg3 Qh6 9.h3 Bxe3+ 10.Rxe3 f5
>  ²  (0.70)   Depth: 9   00:00:06  2721kN
>5.Bd3 h4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.Bc5 Bxc5 8.bxc5 b6 9.cxb6 axb6 10.Re1 hxg3
>  ²  (0.70)   Depth: 10   00:00:12  6635kN
>5.Bd3 Qg4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.f4 Qh3 8.Rf2 exf4 9.Bxb6 fxg3 10.Qb1 Bxb1 11.Rxb1
>  ²  (0.30)   Depth: 11   00:00:38  20815kN
>5.Bd3 Qg4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.f3 Bxf3 8.Bxb6 cxb6 9.Qe3 e4 10.Rfe1 Qh3 11.Qd4
>  =  (-0.10)   Depth: 11   00:00:43  23611kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Qe3 hxg3 7.Qxf3 gxf2+ 8.Kh1 Ng3+ 9.Kg2 Nxf1+ 10.Kxf1 cxb6 11.Qxf2
>Qe6 12.Bxe6+ fxe6
>  =  (-0.09)   Depth: 11   00:01:07  36714kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Qe3 hxg3 7.Qxf3 gxf2+ 8.Kh1 Ng3+ 9.Kg2 Ne4+ 10.Kh1
>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 11   00:01:15  40225kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Qe3 Qh5 7.Bxf7 Ng5 8.Be6+ Nxe6 9.Bc5 Ng5 10.Rfe1 hxg3 11.Qxf3 Nxf3+
>12.Kf1
>  ³  (-0.40)   Depth: 13   00:06:24  199409kN
>5.Bxb6 h4 6.Qe3 Qh5 7.Bxf7 Ng5 8.h3 Nxh3+ 9.Kh2 hxg3+ 10.fxg3 Qxf7
>  µ  (-1.09)   Depth: 13   00:12:02  375801kN
>5.Bd3 Qg4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.f3 Bxf3
>  µ  (-1.08)   Depth: 13   00:12:52  403334kN
>5.Bd3 Qg4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.f3 Bxf3 8.Bxb6 axb6 9.Qe3 e4 10.Rf2 Kb8 11.Kf1 Qh3+
>12.Kg1 Rd8
>  =  (-0.10)   Depth: 13   00:15:09  476507kN
>5.Bd3 Qg4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.f3 Bxf3 8.Bxb6 axb6 9.Qe3 e4 10.Rf2 Kb8 11.Kf1 Qh3+
>12.Kg1 Rd8 13.c4
>  =  (-0.10)   Depth: 14   00:22:57  733061kN
>5.Bd3 h4 6.Bxe4 Bxe4 7.Bc5 Qh5 8.Qd1 Bf3 9.Qd2 Be2 10.Bxb6 hxg3 11.Kg2 Bxf1+
>12.Rxf1 cxb6 13.Re1
>  ³  (-0.50)   Depth: 15   00:38:52  1231436kN
>
>(Blass, Tel-aviv 07.12.2001)
>
>Uri



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