Author: Don Dailey
Date: 20:56:28 06/16/98
Go up one level in this thread
>>You are always implying that you have some special insights and >>that others are in some kind of conservative rut. But all your >>ideas have been on an extremely high level of abstraction. Saying >>"use more knowledge" or "make your program search fewer nodes" >>is not a very coherent plan, and reveals no insight whatsover. >> >>You often use the time honored technique of being critical and >>pointing to the problems and saying it loud enough that no one >>notices you are not presenting any solutions. > >Not having solutions doesn't mean one has to be acritical. I don't know how to >make a violin, but I am entitled to say that a given violin sounds horribly, >even if I can't offer better solutions than telling the maker to improve the >instrument. Same with chess programs. Not being able to program and therefore to >present solutions doesn't mean Thorsten must shut up about programs that play >chess. He has no obligation to shut up, I'm just hoping he will. Not in general but about Fritz and all the dig's about the materialists. I would like to hear him be positive about the approach he prefers without having to be negative about the "materialists." > >> This makes it >>appear that you are privy to a better way when in fact you are >>not. >> >>But you have said nothing we do not already know. Every >>programmer on this group knows what the most serious problems >>of computer chess are. > >Don, the vast majority of us are not programmers. Maybe we find interesting some >issues that don't interest you, and viceversa. CCC stands for chess computer >club, not for chess programmers club. I am used to working with people who are not programmers but big contributers. I think of Thorsten as one of these. Larry Kaufman is not a programmer but everyone knows he was a big contributor to our chess programs and he knew as much about the program as I did. Thorsten may not write a single line of code but that does not mean he cannot have good ideas. If you think I am one of these guy's who say, "you cannot program therefore your opinion is not valid" then you are mistaken. >> And each one of us is keenly interested >>in solving them. Stop attacking us as "materialists" which is >>a gross overstatement of what we actually do. We are simply >>engineers and will always be writing the strongest programs >>because we will always use the techniques that work best. >> >>The truth of the matter is that if you want to have a TOP program >>RIGHT NOW, you MUST have a very fast program with significant >>knowledge engineering. If you want to innovate, experiment and >>be able to claim special insights that other do not have, then >>you must be content with a program that SUCKS. If this changes >>then the engineers will be right on top of this change and will >>conform, because they will always write the best and strongest >>programs. >> >>In my opinion you have no special insights whatsoever on what >>to do about the problems of computer chess. But if you want >>to prove me wrong, then I am willing to listen to any concrete >>solutions you can present to us. >And here you are using the time honored technique of shutting up someone's mouth >for not being a professional in the field. It is as if I would tell you that you >can't analyze Thorsten's words because you are not a linguist. It wouldn't make >much sense either. You are completely wrong about the way you understood this. My strong wording was designed (perhaps poorly) to extract some ideas from him. Thorsten DOES present himself as something of an expert so I believe he can take the heat. I do believe that he has no real solutions but as I said I am willing to listen to anything he can present and I mean just that. >Thorsten knows about games played by programs as much as the best of us. We may >like or dislike his style, agree or disagree with his points, even get mad as I >do at his occasional aggressivity, but disqualifying what he has to say for not >offering solutions is in my opinion irrational. > >Enrique > >>- Don So I'm not angry at Thorsten and neither do I believe us programmers belong to an elite club where no one else dare disagree. Maybe my post was too strong, but I stand behind what I said. Thorsten presents himself as an expert and so I will deal with him as an expert. And if anyone else has any ideas they want to share I will listen, whether they program or not. By the way, programming is the easy part, it's the ideas we need to see. - Don
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