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Subject: Re: [MODERATION] Djenghis in cct4

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 11:17:40 01/16/02

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On January 16, 2002 at 05:41:35, Bas Hamstra wrote:

>On January 15, 2002 at 16:18:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On January 15, 2002 at 15:46:29, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On January 15, 2002 at 15:15:55, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 15, 2002 at 03:57:15, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 14, 2002 at 19:17:02, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>i see bookbuilder in cct4. that is an interface made by
>>>>>>Bas Hamstra sold to J.E.F. Kaan (who can't program at all)
>>>>>>and with crafty added sold as 'bookbuilder'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now i see Jan Kaan join CCT4 with bookbuilder under the name 'djenghis 0.05'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He is mentioned as 'author' from Djenghis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is not correct.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Vincent,
>>>>>
>>>>>You impossibly can provide the evidence of your accusation, I suggest you move
>>>>>your suspect to the Tournament Director of CCT4, that is where it belongs.
>>>>>
>>>>>The moderators of CCC are not going to allow you to discredit the name of Mr.
>>>>>Kaan based on wild speculations. So it's either provide the evidence or stop
>>>>>now.
>>>>>
>>>>>Kindest regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>Ed Schroder
>>>>>CCC moderator
>>>>
>>>>With respect, I disagree with this.  The factual accuracy of what someone is
>>>>saying shouldn't be an issue.  The moderators should not be a court of law that
>>>>determined whether what someone says is true or false.
>>>>
>>>>"Put up or shut up" should be something the members say, not something the
>>>>moderators say.  The club that the moderators wield is too heavy in this case.
>>>>
>>>>As a group, we need to be able to speak freely about issues that are important
>>>>to us.  Sometimes, this might involve very contentious speech, which Vincent
>>>>seems to specialize in.
>>>>
>>>>I think that the charter is designed to protect us from stalkers and people who
>>>>can't stay within the bounds of civility.  It's not designed to prevent us from
>>>>getting into arguments, disagreeing, or even accusing each other of things.
>>>>
>>>>I suggest that if Vincent makes a campaign out of this, it should go.  If
>>>>someone is going to post the same thing every few days, they are obviously using
>>>>the forum as a vehicle for personal attack -- that's what a campaign is.  I
>>>>don't see that happening here.
>>>>
>>>>If someone wants to say something nasty, I think they should go for it.  I think
>>>>that the charter protects us from people would would follow us around sniping at
>>>>us, like the stuff that is happening in the other forum, but if someone is
>>>>displeased with someone, that's a valid topic.
>>>>
>>>>bruce
>>>
>>>I disagree
>>>We got a moderator email that asked to delete all the thread
>>>
>>>I thought to do it but it was not a clear case that I was sure to do it so
>>>I decided to discuss it with Ed and the decision was not to delete it.
>>>but to give Vincent a warning.
>>>
>>>My opinion is that people should not accuse each other by "facts" that they
>>>cannot prove and the question if the "facts" are right or wrong
>>>is not important.
>>
>>
>>I am with Bruce here.  Discussions can be frank at times.  But there is a
>>difference between someone stating a concern and giving reasons for it, and
>>for someone doing the same thing 20 times in a row.  IE the previous group
>>of moderators tolerated quite a bit of this stuff from (say) chessbits or
>>whatever.  But only to a point.  Once a did to, did not discussion goes on
>>a while, it is time to end it.
>>
>>But discussing particularly sensitive issues here should be considered as
>>acceptable so long as it doesn't resort to name-calling/insults.  Being
>>concerned about a brand new program from an unknown author is certainly quite
>>reasonable in light of past happenings related to my program.  I think it has
>>already died down nicely of its own accord without needing any moderator
>>intervention at all.
>>
>>If we only allow provable "facts" here, it will become quite useless, quite
>>quickly, for quite a lot of folks...
>
>Vincent simple has something personal against Jan Kaan (I know this for a fact)
>and tries to discredit him. This is not the first time he tries to discredit him
>in public, you know. I am surprised you have this opinion. When I was once
>pissed at Vincent and wrote *one* poinsonous mail (without any direct insults)
>it was instantly deleted by Uri Blass, because he labelled it a "personal
>attack". And these smearing campaigns are allowed???
>
>Come on, a little consistency...
>
>
>
>Bas Hamstra.


I do not see this as a "smearing campaign".  I see it as a tournament
participant wanting to be sure that we once again don't have yet another
crafty clone playing in a public event.  It has happened in the past.  It
will happen again.  Asking is not "smearing"...




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