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Subject: Re: The importance of being earnest

Author: Fernando Villegas

Date: 06:41:23 07/26/98

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On July 25, 1998 at 20:04:54, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On July 25, 1998 at 16:38:31, Fernando Villegas wrote:
>
>>Bob:
>>Just one thing more to add to this already too long but neccesary discussion.
>>You have proved beyond doubt -nobody had the doubt anyway-that to share even
>>ocassionally a software is illegal. OK, I accept that. Nevertheless, not always
>>illegal is equal to larceny ofr stealing. Even happens that sometimes you can
>>steal legally. American native indians were deprived of his land with one legal
>>act after another and then, when eventually they tried to recover some, they
>>were described as thieves, murderers, etc, and crushed like rats. Many times
>>legality covers the most unfamous stealing, murder and unmorality. That's the
>>reason why in some cases we consider an act legally described as larceny as the
>>contrary of it. Robin Hood -if you forgive me this example- is a case.
>>I am not Robin Hood nor I pretend to be one, but When I had very occasionally
>>shared a program with somebody of my very near environment, although
>>knowing that is illegal, I have not felt to be stealing as much, in my humble
>>opinion, the price that software producers charge for his products is 9 times of
>>ten a clear abuse. Even so I buy all -just take a look at my Visa card or ask
>>steve Schwartz or Bert seifritz, etc- but then at leats I give my self certain
>>limite right to put things in more fair terms when they are not fair. Let us say
>>all this in other way: You steal when you get something from other guy against
>>his will, but is not so clear that you are stealing if you get once in 100 times
>>something for free from a guy that is 99 in 100 times getting something a lot
>>bigger from you, making use of your neccesity and his position as supplier of
>>it. You can say "then don't use it", but you know very well not always are you
>>in position to do that. Clearly, this is the kind of situations where you try to
>>balance up the things. Economic damage? Yes, but not neccesarily against the
>>producers. Have you thought the damage customers take all the time from too high
>>priced software? When you see so many excellent programs priced at 10 or 15
>>dollars, many times equally good or better than other priced ten times more
>>expensively, you slowly gets a feeling that no matter what the print legend say
>>in the box, the common customer,not the one protected by the funds of an
>>organizacion, is all the time abused under the pretense of "search and
>>development investment". You, as a software developer, know very well that
>>fairness is not the motto in the mouth of great software producers and even many
>>times neither in little ones. Then, again, in the context of this global setup
>>of things, to share once or twice in your life an old program is so an slight
>>balacing of things that it cannot and it should not to be considered so lightly
>>and harsly as sheer larceny like going to the grocery and take the money with a
>>pistol. .
>>Fernando
>
>I understand your point.  But as I said, I was simply brought up "differently".
>I have watched young kids that "only" stole a dime here and there grow up into
>teen-agers that only stole a few dollars (or some beer or snuck into a movie
>theatre) grow up into young adults that only stole a car...
>
>I understand the frustration of the cost of software.  And that some consider
>making a copy for a friend to be ok in some cases, not in others.  IE you give
>away a copy of Rebel and (a) Ed loses nothing because the friend couldn't afford
>to buy it; or (b) Ed loses a sale but it is only one and really doesn't hurt
>since you've bought many versions.  Or, in another case, like Microsoft, giving
>a copy of their stuff doesn't hurt because they are one of the wealthiest comp-
>anies in the world and won't miss it or don't deserve that much money anyway.
>
>My main point is that it is bad enough to copy software in violation of the
>license agreement, but to try to justify it as ok, is *not* ok.


BOB:
I never tried to do of copying a gospel, nor I said it was good. What i said
that this  an issue that deserves some pondered qualification and not an
inmediate one  as larceny.

Suppose some
>young kids visit here and read such comments?  One of the requirements in the
>ACM Computer Science Curriculum is a unit on "computer ethics" which covers just
>this topic.  TO say "it's ok" invites a world of young kids to do this, which
>means that when *they* grow up, license agreements will be totally useless as
>they have been "conditioned" to ignore them, because it is "ok"...
>
>I've made this an absolute in my house, as did my parents when they raised me.
>I believe I turned out ok in this regard.  And that my kids will to.  I'm not
>sure how it would be if they had seen me constantly copying/stealing computer
>software and games.  They tend to "generalize" and that leads to bigger
>troubles.
>
>Hopefully you understand my perspective.  It is not a personal problem with
>you.  It is a definite moral issue with the "concept"...


I fully understand you and I fully forgive you if in a moment -as it seemed to
me- you went beyond the limits. Maybe you thinks there is nothing to be forgiven
for, but just in case :-). I only wante to be understood and not to be
considered a simple thief preaching larceny as a kind of new evangelic truth.
You must realize I consider people here in CCC as friends and a friend does not
like to be treated as thief by the rest of the crew. Sureley some substantial
differences about this will remain between you and me, but I hope that wull be
not enough reason to lose you apreciation, nor your words will be a cause for
that with me.
Fernando



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