Author: Peter McKenzie
Date: 20:51:44 06/12/02
Go up one level in this thread
On June 12, 2002 at 03:17:59, Uri Blass wrote: >On June 11, 2002 at 23:37:06, Peter McKenzie wrote: > >>On June 10, 2002 at 11:39:18, Alberto Rezza wrote: >> >>>On June 09, 2002 at 19:29:33, Russell Reagan wrote: >>> >>>>You do a very nice job of manipulating the intention of everything I said. >>> >>>I have to say you are wrong here. >>> >>>Of course, with deep enough search (say 50- to 100-ply for chess, 300-ply or >>>more for go) strategy completely disappears and everything is tactics. Then you >>>would be right. >>> >>>But if we keep the distinction betwen strategy and tactics, it is true that by >>>reducing the size of the go board you lose a lot of strategic contents. You lose >>>all of it if you go all the way to 2x2. So he was right and you wrong: it's not >>>the same game. Of course this same reasoning would apply to any form of >>>mini-chess. >>> >>>To put the whole discussion in perspective, here are some facts (I can give no >>>sources now, but I could dig them up in variuos places). All the rankings I give >>>are comparable to Japanese amateur rankings (NOT to European, USA, IGS, etc. >>>rankings). >>> >>>1. 7x7 go is almost solved. 9x9 go is widely regarded as somewhat less complex >>>than chess, but more complex than checkers/draughts. 9x9 go is actually played, >>>even by masters, though less than 19x19 go; 13x13 is played very little. >>> >>>2. The best go programs play at about 5- or 6-kyu level; but they go down to >>>about 10-kyu in just a few games, after the human adapts to their artificial >>>style of play (and peculiar blunders). In my opinion, a very dedicated human >>>beginner (one who plays every day) could reach 6-kyu in one month; however, very >>>few people actually do it in less than one year, and some NEVER reach that >>>level. >>> >>>3. BTW, I used to be 3-dan (I'm weaker now for I don't play) and I could beat >>>the best programs giving a 9-stone handicap, or more. >>> >>>4. It's a fact that go is much more difficult TO PROGRAM than chess; but this >>>tells us nothing about which game is more difficult FOR HUMANS to play. >> >>I'm not so sure this is a proven fact. If you compare the amount of effort that >>has gone into computer chess, it is orders of magnitude greater than for >>computer go. There have been hundreds of computer chess programs, many hundreds >>of academic papers and many books and doctorates on the subject plus a rich >>history that goes right back to the 1940s. >> >>Certainly go is a different challenge that does not respond well to the same >>techniques used in computer chess, but I don't think we can say for sure that it >>is more difficult to program. > >Maybe it is dependent on the target. >If the target is to have a program that beqats the world champion 6-0 then I do >not know but if the target is to have a program that is better than 1500 then I >think that writing chess programs is clearly easier. > >If you take a good and intelligent programmer who read nothing about games(and >even never learned about the alpha beta algorithm) and ask him(her) to generate >a chess program in a year without reading papers then I guess that (s)he can get >at least into tscp level in a year and tscp is clearly better than 1500. > >I guess that the programmer may find the alpha beta without help. > >If you ask the programmer to write a good go program without reading papers then >I guess that the same programmer is not going to be able even to do a program >that is at 1500 level(1500 level in chess is eqvivalent to the level of the best >go programs in the world based on my understanding). Thats an interesting thought experiment Uri. Not sure if you are right, but I suspect you have a pretty good point. > >Uri
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