Author: Matthew Hull
Date: 13:41:58 07/19/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 19, 2002 at 15:50:08, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On July 19, 2002 at 11:50:51, Matthew Hull wrote: > >> >>It seems that most of the controversy can be boiled down to the axb5 vs Qb6 >>issue. > >Objection. > >That was Kasparov's reason for his question for the logs, yes. But it's not the >biggest challenge of the DB2 team. The biggest examination came from me with the >miles higher levelled questioning of their experimental design and ethics. >Please read all the exchange of arguments between Dr. Hyatt and me. The point is >that the logs seriously do not prove a thing. > > >> This was the ONE BIG evidence Kasparov had of possible cheating. It >>seems in fact that this is the only thread by which the cheating allegation >>hangs. If that could be demonstrated, then who knew how many more moves in the >>match would have been "corrupt", yes? >> >>But we find that logs from other chess engines show a similar DB2-like regard >>for the two moves over time in that the two evaluations show a trend toward >>intersection. This greatly weakens (if not completely destroy's) Kasparov's >>strongest evidence of cheating. > >Objection! > >Why do think that completely different entities could be taken for refutation or >corroboration of DB2 play? That is comparing apples and peas. (That is why I >demonstrated the importance of the deconstruction of the machine. It simply >destroyed all possible evidence. The rest is speculation. At whose costs? The >team of DB2 is guilty of.) > >> >>All the rest of the arguments about courtesy, politeness, friendliness, supposed >>sinister motives (please provide Hsu's and Murray's brain logs for evidence!) >>and goodwill do not strengthen Kasparov's axb6/Qb6 contention, by which the >>entire cheating allegation hangs. That is the only thread Kasparov ever had. > >In science truth is not depending on some individual's limitations. As I said I >did make the main accusations! In your collection above you forgot to mention >ethics of scientists. And this is completely independant of Kasparov. It's a >'must', a duty, of the team. Unfortunately they failed. Perhaps you don't >understand it at first. But then read please my exchange with Dr. Hyatt. The >main reason lies in the early stages of their experimental design of the >machine. Perhaps the whole question could be led back to the early times of >tournament computerchess. At the time the protagonists simply missed the >question of documentation, because it was just an academic fun at weekends where >all parties had the same good status just by their participation in the new >research. The chess itself was not the most important factor in these days... >simply because it was very weak chess. Even the operators were sometimes >stronger than the machines. :) > >And another important point was the long-distance connection to the huge machine >power. So, the question of cheating would have led to nowhere - because anything >in fact was possible. But to what purpose? That's why the question wasn't top on >the agenda in those ancient days. > >>And his contention has been scientifically undermined, if not completely >>destroyed. > >Objection. > >> >>_That_ is science. If it's good enough for other engines to find the evaluation >>trend, if not the move itself (given the un-avoidable technological >>disparities), then the DB2 log validity is only strengthened, not weakened. > >You must read what Amir wrote about it. The question is if DB2 would reject the >present of three black pawns! Of course PC machines can be instructed to reject >it, but facts speak a different language - that comps still are a bit too >greedy. > >>That's where the true scientific evidence points. End of story. Game over. >> >>Yes? :-) > >No, I'm so sorry. :) I think I see what you are saying (and I did read all the threads first) and all the stuff about documentation and oversight sounds great in 20/20 hindsight. But weighing all the arguments in the balance, it just seems to defy common sense that these reputable programmers would stoop to cheating. It just wasn't necessary. They had proved, from Chiptest to DB1 that the machine could play very good chess, better than any other machine extant. Match 1 showed some significant weaknesses, but also surprising ability. The next hardware iteration (DB2) would be even more impressive. I remember seeing some years ago a Nova documentary on Deep Thought, back when Karpov was one of the IBM consultants. Hsu was talking about the considerable abilities of DT and that he envisioned DT being shrunk to a chip, and then running 1024 of them in parrallel. "That ought to do it" were his exact words. It was really kind of humorous. He was literally going to throw chips at the "problem". (The eventual design ended up not having 1024 chips.). Why would he allow such a great experiment and opportunity to be spoiled by cheating. If that were the intent, the team could have expended far less on a really good "The Turq" type of device, with GMs really in control. The only credible motive's I can imagine for them cheating would be: 1. DB2 turned out to be a real turkey of a chess player and needed serious help to avoid embarrassment. 2. Evil marketdroids, not trusting the fruit of their own project, compelled the team to accept GM intervention at critical points of the game to ensure the best possible result. There's no evidence that #1 was the case, based on over a decade of successful technological progression. And, it doesn't seem logical that the team--based on Dr. Hyatts more intimate knowlege of their character--would allow #2 to corrupt their most interesting experiment and lifes work (so to speak). If Kasparov hadn't brought up the axb5/Qb6 issue, this whole argument would never have happened. In the end, DB2 didn't have to play brilliant chess to defeat Kasparov, because he just blundered the match away. To me, that's why he lost. The evidence is very clear on that point, at least. Anyway, that's how it looks to me. :-) Regards, > >Rolf Tueschen > >> >>Regards
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