Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 05:20:07 08/21/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 21, 2002 at 07:58:52, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: needed to get more crafty versions? That all ain't octobre 1997... /* last modified 04/01/99 */ /* ---------------------------------------------------------- | | | now we toss in the "razoring" trick, which simply says | | if we are doing fairly badly, we can reduce the depth | | an additional ply, if there was nothing at the current | | ply that caused an extension. | | | ---------------------------------------------------------- */ if (depth<3*INCPLY && depth>=2*INCPLY && !tree->in_check[ply] && extensions == -60) { register const int value=-Evaluate(tree,ply+1,ChangeSide(wtm), -(beta+51),-(alpha-51)); if (value+50 < alpha) extensions-=60; } >On August 20, 2002 at 17:56:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 20, 2002 at 07:12:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:48:08, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:15:47, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 15:08:49, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 09:06:02, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kasparov proved that he can defeat programs at fast time controls when he >>>>>>>defeated Deep Thought in a game/90 two games match in 1989. This program was >>>>>>>weaker than Deep Junior is today, as it searched well over 2,000,000 NPS, but >>>>>>>didn't have as much chess knowledge as Deep Junior. He also defeated Deep Blue >>>>>>>in 1996. This program is obviously much faster than Deep Junior is today, but in >>>>>>>my opinion Deep Junior still has more chess knowledge than Deep Blue had back in >>>>>>>1996. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>PS: It is hard to compare Deep Blue of 1997 vs Deep Junior of today, but in my >>>>>>>opinion Deep Junior Chess Knowledge could make up for the difference of Deep >>>>>>>Blue super calculating power of 1997. >>>>>> >>>>>>How do you know all this? >>>>>> >>>>>>How do you know Deep Junior has more chess knowledge? >>>>>> >>>>>>I mean, we don't know what Deep Blue evaluated exactly (save a few things >>>>>>that are published). We know *nothing* about what Deep Junior evaluates >>>>>>exactly. >>>>> >>>>>yes we know that. Look at the paper it describes about 40 patterns and if >>>>>you multiply that with arrays of 64 (that's how it goes in hardware) >>>>>and add to it piece square tables it is exactly what theydid. of course how >>>>>well defined the patterns are is a different case. >>>>> >>>>>We can see that at the rude play very easily. Look at game 1 from 97, >>>>>where it played manoeuvres like qa5 bc7 qc5 which even seirawan comments >>>>>correctly in his 1997 analysis. Gnuchess accuracy it is. Very rude and >>>>>primitive, but for a program with a leaf evaluation (even though some >>>>>tuning by preprocessor took place) with several tens of patterns (and >>>>>as a result of that several thousands of adjustable parameters) that >>>>>means it was searching deeper than any program with that amount of >>>>>knowledge in evaluation in 1997. I for sure had more in 97 (though i >>>>>used arrays less back in 97 than i do now as i'm not hardware but >>>>>software and L2 caches were performing bad in general back then until >>>>>pentium pro which took a few years to adjust to) so had others, but we >>>>>all shared that at a 200Mhz pentiumpro we searched 8-9 ply, NOT 11-12. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I'm not going to comment on the rest of your nonsensical statements, but >>>>the above is clearly wrong and that is provable. I played in Jakarta on >>>>a pentium pro 200. And _My program_ searched 11-12 plies. I have the logs >>>>to prove it. And anyone that wants to download the crafty (jakarta) version >>>>can find the same thing... >>>> >>>>So if you are going to make statements, at _least_ verify that there is some >>>>basis of truth to them first. _you_ might not have been able to hit 11-12 >>>>plies on a P6/200, but I did... And others did as well. >>> >>> - no checks in qsearch >>> - forward pruning last ply which also hurted nullmove incredible >> >>Don't know what you mean there. If you are talking about razoring, it was >>a 25% gain roughly but it was removed many years ago... > >Yes it was removed around 2000-2001 after i adviced you to remove it Bob. > >>> - no mating extensions (not solving win at chess 141 even soon which >>> in 1997 was a 9 ply trick for me). >> >>Crafty has been solving wac141 for a long time. The null-move mate threat >>speeded it up a ply, maybe... >> >>But that is not the point... You said "nobody got to 11-12 plies". I got >>to 11-12 plies. Your statement is therefore simply false because of that. > >A dubious 11-12 ply which doesn't compare to them doesn't count. > >Look DIEP 1997 was comparable, so was gnuchess or Zarkov, so was >The King. When forward pruning turned off (except nullmove) in the king >from that period, neither of all the programs ever got 11-12 ply. > >We can't count an idiotic crafty version. Crafty in 1997 didn't have >anything called 'king safety'. I remember how you did effort to prevent >getting mated by something stupid where even diep version 1.0 didn't >fall for at bullet search depths back then, and where crafty fell for >even at 11-12 ply. You had a special feature at icc created to prevent >that 'mercilous' attack even. Everyone in blitz and bullet could beat >crafty very long period of time with just a simple king safety trick which >even 1400 chessplayers understood. They were noplayed, censored, a special >S list was created, anything but the king safety was fixed. > >If you run with material only, every idiot gets 11-12 ply. Now you didn't >even get it in a legal way. You needed forward pruning for it. > >Your memory is FUCKING bad that you don't even remember when you turned >off the forward pruning in crafty. > >>You didn't qualify the "nobody to exclude those that can't solve wac 141 >>fast enough for you or whatever." >> >> >> >>> >>>Fritz3 also got 11 ply but it was also with a lot of dubiousy. >>> >>>In fact some hit 15 ply as well with major forward pruning back then. >>> >>>But that is not a fair compare. We must compare programs that searched >>>in the same way Bob. So not forward pruning, at most nullmove. and >>>strong in the leaves. >>> >>>Crafty even today is very weak there. >> >>Where does that leave _your_ program then??? >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>So then 11-12 wins simply. 8-9 with evaluations from that period lost >>>>>simply. period. >>>>> >>>>>Evaluations 8-9 nowadays are a different case (extending way more nowadays >>>>>too than in 1997 too). The evaluation of DIEP is a top grandmaster relatively >>>>>seen when compared to 1997 where it knew shit from endgames for example. >>>>> >>>>>>As a consequence, you can't possibly support any of the claims or >>>>>>suggestions you make. >>>>> >>>>>Yes we can. The biggest evidence is the games played. Statistical evidence >>>>>on how programs play moves is the best. The major problem is that you need >>>>>to invest time if your chess level is not so high to see it and even a high >>>>>rated chessplayer who knows nothing from how chessprograms evaluate will >>>>>completely fail here (though Seirawan came pretty far but as he was paid >>>>>by IBM he described it in a positive way, leaving conclusions to the reader). >>>>> >>>>>We have seen some marvellous conclusions already by Uri here based upon >>>>>logfiles from the IBM computer. From evaluation viewpoint we >>>>>see for example from the mainlines that it gives a big bonus for a bishop >>>>>attacking its own queen. We also see it only cares for how many squares the >>>>>queen can go to, not caring for patterns there. Very basic things which >>>>>were at the time very normal in gnuchess type programs. >>>>> >>>>>We also see that it knows really nothing from good/bad bishops (not >>>>>surprising, only 1 program had in 97 this thing and it was mine). It >>>>>simply didn't care for the center at all. This is amazing nowadays >>>>>comercial programs *only* care for the center. >>>>> >>>>>Also its knowledge on passers was very primitif. We see for example that >>>>>it doesn't see difference even between covered passers and very good >>>>>blocked passers. Regrettably that didn't happen a lot on the board. >>>>> >>>>>The most amazing thing by far is its huge penalties and bonuses for a few >>>>>king safety things. that of course led to big patzer play which is nice >>>>>and nowadays very normal. These penalties/bonuses are in complete >>>>>contrast to pawn structure aroudn the king. In many games we see >>>>>major mistakes here. game 1, but if i remember well game 4 where >>>>>deep blue castles long and then plays horrible king moves and b4 b5. >>>>> >>>>>From the many king moves in the game and in the logfiles we see clearly that >>>>>it had a very primitif 'opponent pieces to my king' distance feature. >>>>> >>>>>I remember how DIEP back in 95,96 wanted also always ka1 because that would >>>>>mean the king is further away from the pieces. A very basic mistake we >>>>>still see in some engines. It is a non-preprocessor mistake obviously. >>>>> >>>>>but it doesn't take away that the pattern is a very primitive heuristic. >>>>> >>>>>nearly all kind of bad moves are explained by simple bugs in evaluation. >>>>>100% the exact bugs gnuchess also has. >>>>> >>>>>the comparision with gnuchess is not fair, but for evaluation it sure is. >>>>> >>>>>We see that the 'new gnuchess', sorry to call it like that, zarkovx, >>>>>is the program which when getting 10-11 ply is playing from all chess software >>>>>nearly exactly every move which deep blue also played. don't use the >>>>>dos-zarkov, but i mean the 4.5xx versions of zarkovx where John hardly >>>>>nullmoves the last few plies (they take some time to get 10-12 ply, >>>>>horrible branching factor). It makes the same weird moves, same mistakes, >>>>>same strong moves. It is a perfect match for how deep blue played. >>>>> >>>>>A person who can't play chess at all and whose program is exactly making >>>>>the mistakes a beginner makes when making a chess evaluation. >>>>> >>>>>Best regards, >>>>>Vincent >>>>> >>>>>>All of this talk about Deep Blue this and Deep Blue that is just pure >>>>>>bullshit. Maybe Fritz 7 would kick its ass. Maybe Fritz 7 would get >>>>>>its ass kicked. Maybe they're about as strong. I dont care either way >>>>>>since Deep Blue doesn't exist anymore and it certainly doesn't look as >>>>>>if it's ever going to play again. So why care about it? Why keep making >>>>>>totally unfounded speculations? What's the frigging point? This kind >>>>>>of discussion comes up about once in every 2 months and there has NEVER >>>>>>EVER come anything insightful out. Instead, a lot of people are making >>>>>>claims or saying things that they can never ever support, or even are >>>>>>demonstrably wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>Mention the words 'Deep' and 'Blue' to anyone who works in computer >>>>>>chess, and all sanity suddently grinds to a halt. >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>GCP
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