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Subject: liar

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 13:52:11 10/04/02

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On October 04, 2002 at 14:57:12, Omid David wrote:

Posted by Omid David (Profile) on October 04, 2002 at 10:34:43:


Just today we had a discussion regarding the importance of blockade draw
detections http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?255950

Had Fritz implemented such a scheme, it wouldn't have stepped into the drawing
variation.

My engine instantly announced draw based on its blocked-draw detection
heuristic. While Fritz never realized the draw...

Omid.
---------------------------------

Did you see the position fritz-kramnik?

If you did, do you recognize the position here?



>On October 04, 2002 at 14:27:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:42:09, Omid David wrote:
>>
>>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:38:01, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:36:16, Omid David wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:33:00, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:25:12, Daniel Clausen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On October 04, 2002 at 11:22:05, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On October 04, 2002 at 10:34:43, Omid David wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>had fritz implemented such a scheme it would play 300 points weaker
>>>>>>>>anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Obviously" it's "impossible" to implement such a scheme, because you've tried
>>>>>>>that already for 5 minutes and it didn't work? SCNR :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sargon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I played with it with DIEP a few years ago and it performed horrible.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you apply such method to each and every node in the search tree, it's natural
>>>>>that the whole search is slowed down in a horrible manner.
>>>>
>>>>no you really are an idiotic programmer if you slow down that
>>>>much by just a few heuristics.
>>>
>>>"just a few heuristic" isn't the case here. It's a complicated (pretty
>>>time-consuming) algorithm, and this, to make sure its results are 100% correct.
>>>
>>>>I already do a lot of scans on the
>>>>board of diep. a full eval is like 100k clocks. so a scan over
>>>>the board is not so expensive. i already scan the pawn structure
>>>>extensively in fact. it's just a few functions i need to turn on
>>>>to find otu things.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>when you have code that 'overrules' other code then you take away hundreds
>>>>>>of patterns which normally compensate knowledge. it means that if that
>>>>>>single pattern is incorrect, that you lose directly a game.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course. And that's why your heuristic should be 100% correct and reliable.
>>>>
>>>>the problem of the whole chess game is that you have never 100% correct
>>>>and reliable evaluation except if your opponent is mated.
>>>
>>>Wrong. I've conducted hundreds of tests, and in no single case has my heuristic
>>>returned an inaccurate result. There exist blockades that it fails to detect,
>>>but it never declares a false draw.
>>
>>That's an impossible claim only a beginner can make.
>
>If you can't do it, it doesn't mean it's impossible. I say it is possible for I
>have already done it.
>
>
>>
>>let's take that 'easy to recognize blocked position from against
>>kramnik as you mention
>>
>>white: Kf1,b3,a4,c4,e5,f4,g5
>>black: Ka7,a5,b6,c7,e6,g6
>
>My engine doesn't detect any draw here.
>
>
>>
>>black did big effort to exchange to this position. ideally blocked...
>>
>>f5 (pawn sacrafice) 1-0
>>
>>Vincent
>>
>>>Omid.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Omid.



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