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Subject: Re: The "only" bad thing with Kramnik vs. Fritz!

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 02:51:21 10/12/02

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On October 11, 2002 at 23:13:27, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On October 10, 2002 at 16:37:32, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>
>>On October 10, 2002 at 12:03:08, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>
>>>On October 10, 2002 at 07:05:49, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>>>
>>>If you use null-move R=3, your minimum software depth for iteration i will be >at least i-3. Does this mean I can say you're searching 9 ply when you report >12 plies of output?
>>>
>>>They didn't nullmove, so this does not apply. Their minimal depth was
>>>their nominal depth.
>>
>>In Chessmaster, you can sometimes see depths of 1/12 or something.  Supposedly,
>>the 1 is something akin to the 'minimum software depth', where 12 is the
>>'minimum extension depth' (whatever that means).  Do you say Chessmaster gets a
>>nominal depth of 1 ply in that case?
>>
>>Here is an example lifted from another thread:
>>
>>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>>0:22	1/10	0.18	2019899		1...Bg7 2.Nd5 Nb4 3.Nxb4 cxb4 4.Re1
>>					Kb8 5.c5 f6 6.exf6 Bxf6 7.cxb6
>>0:28	1/10	0.02	2616465		1...Nb4 2.Rc1 Bg7 3.a3 Nd3+ 4.Bxd3
>>					Rxd3 5.Ke2 Rdd8 6.Rhd1 Kb7 7.Kf3
>>					Rhe8
>>0:44	2/11	0.05	4009153		1...Nb4 2.Rc1 Bg7 3.a3 Nd3+ 4.Bxd3
>>					Rxd3 5.Ke2 Rdd8 6.Nd5 Bxd5 7.cxd5
>>					Rxd5 8.Rhd1 Rhd8 9.Rxd5 Rxd5
>>1:37	3/12	-0.02	9618144		1...Nb4 2.Rc1 Bg7 3.a3 Nd3+ 4.Bxd3
>>					Rxd3 5.Ke2 Rdd8 6.Rhd1 f6 7.exf6
>>					Bxf6 8.Nd5 Bg7
>>4:36	4/13	-0.19	29219198	1...Nb4 2.Rc1 Bg7 3.a3 Nd3+ 4.Bxd3
>>					Rxd3 5.Rhd1 Rxd1 6.Rxd1 f6 7.exf6
>>					Bxf6 8.Nd5 Rd8 9.Ke2
>>
>>The point is, you can't easily compare depths of programs where you don't know
>>EXACTLY what they are doing.  Searching to depth 10 in Chessmaster and Fritz
>>will give a huge disparity in results, because their searches are nothing alike.
>> The same goes for DB and Fritz.  This is why I believe you can't compare
>>reported search depths between programs (I can again use Junior as an example)
>>and say that one 'outsearches' the other by some margin of plies.
>
>
>Of course that is correct.  But it isn't going to stop the "comparisons" so it
>is going to be
>a "correct but moot point".  :)
>
>The DB haters will _remain_ DB haters and take pot shots at every opportunity.
>Not much can
>be done.  Perhaps DB will return at some point and the debate can be replaced by
>real results...

I do not think that being the best is impossible for DB
but I do not expect them to come back with the exact
version that beated kasparov.

If you ask me if I believe that they can become number 1
in the future thanks to their hardware advantage then
I say yes but the question if the version that
beated kasparov was better than
Deep Fritz of today is a different question.

Uri



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