Author: Uri Blass
Date: 08:22:18 10/14/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 14, 2002 at 09:53:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On October 14, 2002 at 07:43:32, Harald Faber wrote: > >>On October 14, 2002 at 04:04:30, Ingo Althofer wrote: >> >>>In the log-files of the ICC hour with Feng Hsiung Hsu >>>the following passages can be found: >>> >>>> EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: I heard that Fritz did >>>> play a match against Deep Blue in Hong Kong >>>> 1995,according to one of the Fritz programmers, >>>> is this not true? >>>> CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: >>>> false advertisement. deep blue does not exist >>>> until 1996. the new chip was not completed >>>> until january 1996... >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: question from oddg: Back to >>>> the WC 1995, There was an entry with the name >>>> Deep Blue (Fritz won against DB), did it not have >>>> any relations to your Deep Blue? (EeEk: any idea >>>> how Deep Blue's name got in there, is this >>>> completely false?) >>>> CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue did not play in >>>> 1995, since it did not exist yet. >>>> it was just deliberate relabeling on the part of >>>> commercial vendors, for obvious reasons. >>> >>> >>>I had a look back into the June 1995 issue of the >>>ICCA Journal and found the following data which >>>might clearify things: >>> >>>* On p.97ff the contestants of the Hong Kong World >>>Championship are described. One of them is >>>"Deep Blue Prototype by Feng-Hsiung Hsu, ..." >>> >>>* On p.102 the Final Standings are given, with >>>"Pos.3 DEEP BLUE USA ...." >>> >>>* On p.130 of the same issue there is an announcement: >>> "The ACM Chess Challenge >>> World Champon Kasparov to play IBM's DEEP BLUE" >>>In this announcement it reads >>>"DEEP BLUE is being developed at the IBM ... by >>>Feng-Hsiung Hsu, Murray Campbell and Joe Hoane, >>>under the supervision of Chung-Jen Tan. An earlier >>>version of the system won the 1994 ACM International >>>Computer Chess Championship at Cape May, New Jersey." >>> >>> >>>So, the name "Deep Blue (Prototype)" was not a >>>"deliberate relabeling on the part of commercial >>>vendors" but the official name in 1995. >>> >>>Ingo Althofer. >> >> >>Hsu... well... he wouldn't be a friend of mine. Everything he says seems to be >>doubtful. DB Jr. 10-0 vs. other commercials where NOONE ever has seen the games >>except... guess who... yes, Hsu. Now denying the loss in 1995, of course it was >>"just a prototype absolutely not comparable with real DB". Nonsense. And >>honestly speaking, I do not believe 50% of what he says or writes. It is all >>about things noone else has ever seen, proven or whatever. > >First of all i find Hsu has a lot of guts to do these talks. > >SEcondly i do believe the 10-0. Programs around 1997 were world champion >giving away material. Rebel searches very dubiously. It is a preprocessor. >It has some knowledge. The 1997 versions had huge mobility problems. > >Later Ed fixed this to some extend (not much, it still is its weakness). > >Rebel always lacked knowledge, though Ed claims from not. > >Ed is a nice guy but he doesn't play chess very well. He has no rating. >Even if it was 2000 rated it woudl be like god in his eyes. > >The objective truth about programs from 1997 is that they suck ass >compared to 2002 standards. Games were decided by blunders. They are weaker than the programs of 2002 but the result is not something that is close to 10-0. Based on chessfun's rating list the gap between Junior4.6 and Tiger15 is less than 300 elo and it means more than 10% for Junior4.6 > >Rebel searched in 1997 in a very dubious way. He had to. There were >no alternatives. What i did, getting 7 to 8 ply at 2 minutes a move at >a 300Mhz PII, this was no option to Ed. > >Instead Ed did some dubious things and got like 8 to 10 ply at 2 minutes >a move. > >In rapid this means about 8 ply. > >Now we take deep blue junior. Even a single chip. I do not believe they >had clocked it lower. That it ran at 1/3 clock speed is utter nonsense >of course. > >It ran at full speed of course and they tested of course with deep blue >junior. I do not believe the single cpu versus single cpu story. > >Let's assume it was deep blue junior. It gets 10 ply fullwidth against >8 ply dubious fullwidth. > >That's 1-0 simply. Really? Here are some examples from the nunn match between Deep Fritz6 and Tiger14 10 plies of tiger are more than 8 plies of Fritz but I can also gives examples when tiger had 2 plies advantages and Fritz won(see the end of this post) 2 plies advantage win most of the games but in most of the cases I do not expect 10-0 result. Chess Tiger 14.0 - Deep Fritz [A77] pIII450, 10ply/8ply tel-aviv (4), 14.05.2001 W=8.2 ply; 110kN/s; 2 TBAs B=10.5 ply; 343kN/s; 7 TBAs 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Nd2 Nbd7 Both last book move 11.f3 0.18/8 2 Nb6 0.22/10 6 12.Nb3 0.36/8 1 a5 (Nh5) 0.22/10 21 13.Bg5 0.40/8 1 h6 0.12/10 9 14.Bh4 0.30/8 0 a4 (g5) 0.00/10 5 15.Nc1 (Nd2) 0.26/8 1 15...a3 (g5) 0.00/10 10 16.bxa3 (Rb1) 0.28/8 0 16...Rxa3 (g5) 0.28/10 16 17.Nb5 0.24/8 1 Ra6 0.34/10 7 18.Rb1 0.44/8 1 Nbd7 0.41/10 17 19.Qc2 0.36/8 5 Ne5 (g5) 0.47/10 14 20.Nd3 0.50/8 1 Nxd3 (g5) 0.50/10 25 21.Bxd3 0.52/8 0 Qe7 (g5) 0.50/10 22 22.Bc4 (Rb3) 0.80/8 4 22...g5 (Rd8) 0.53/10 13 23.Be1 0.68/8 1 g4 0.53/10 11 24.Bc3 (Nc3) 0.56/8 2 24...gxf3 0.47/10 56 25.gxf3 (Rxf3) 0.80/8 2 25...Bh3 0.41/10 15 26.Rfe1 (Rfc1) 0.64/8 3 26...Nh5 (Nh7) 0.47/10 30 27.Kh1 0.64/8 2 Bxc3 0.53/10 34 28.Qxc3 0.08/8 2 Qe5 (Kh7) 0.50/10 17 29.Rg1+ (Qe3) 0.69/8 3 29...Kh7 0.37/10 7 30.Qxe5 (Qb3) 0.84/8 2 30...Rxe5 0.62/10 1 31.a4 (Nc7) 0.72/8 0 31...Nf4 (Rg5) 0.47/10 2 32.Nc3 0.88/8 0 Ra7 0.62/10 1 33.Rb6 1.40/8 0 Rg5 0.81/10 2 34.Rxg5 1.14/8 0 hxg5 1.06/10 1 35.Rxd6 (Kg1) 1.34/8 0 35...Bg2+ 0.94/10 2 36.Kg1 0.76/1 0 Bxf3 0.97/10 2 37.Rd7 2.00/8 0 Kg6 1.59/10 6 38.d6 2.24/8 1 Ra8 (Kf6) 1.81/10 15 39.Bxf7+ 3.08/8 1 Kf6 1.81/10 3 40.Re7 2.78/8 0 g4 (Rd8) 2.09/10 14 41.e5+ (Nd5+) 2.84/8 4 41...Kg5 1.56/10 5 42.Re8 (d7) 3.50/8 2 42...Rxe8 1.72/10 2 43.Bxe8 2.54/8 0 Ne6 1.72/10 0 44.Bf7 2.36/8 0 Nf8 1.87/10 0 45.e6 2.56/8 1 Kf6 2.06/10 0 46.d7 2.38/8 0 Ke7 2.25/10 1 47.Kf2 2.28/8 0 Nh7 (Bc6) 2.50/10 0 48.h3 3.12/8 1 Nf6 2.50/10 0 49.Kg3 (hxg4) 3.26/8 0 49...b6 2.69/10 1 50.Bg6 3.34/8 0 Nd5 (Kd8) 2.41/10 2 51.hxg4 3.86/8 0 Nxc3 2.37/10 0 52.Kxf3 3.92/8 0 Nxa4 2.87/10 0 53.g5 5.00/8 0 Nc3 3.78/10 0 54.Bd3 (Bf7) 5.82/8 0 54...b5 (Kd8) 6.66/10 0 55.Be4 8.08/8 0 b4 9.69/10 0 56.g6 9.10/8 0 Nxe4 (Nb5) 9.53/10 0 57.Kxe4 11.88/8 0 b3 9.75/10 0 1-0 Deep Fritz - Chess Tiger 14.0 [B80] pIII450, 10ply/8ply tel-aviv (17), 14.05.2001 W=10.5 ply; 328kN/s; 1 TBAs B=8.4 ply; 109kN/s 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3 b5 8.Qd2 Nbd7 9.g4 h6 Both last book move 10.a4 0.31/10 19 b4 0.12/8 1 11.Na2 0.00/10 10 d5 0.28/8 3 12.Nc6 (Nxb4) -0.37/10 39 12...Qc7 -0.56/8 1 13.exd5 (Ncxb4) -0.50/10 35 13...Nxd5 -0.64/8 1 14.Ncxb4 -0.50/10 13 Nxe3 -0.88/8 1 15.Qxe3 -0.59/10 11 Bb7 -1.22/8 3 16.Be2 (Qe2) -0.62/10 39 16...Bd6 (Be7) -1.40/8 3 17.Qf2 (g5) -0.84/10 55 17...a5 (0-0) -1.40/8 8 18.Nd3 -0.66/10 9 Qxc2 (Nf6) -1.20/8 2 19.Qd4 -0.34/10 12 Be7 (Ke7) -1.34/8 3 20.Rc1 -0.75/10 19 Qb3 -1.38/8 1 21.Rc7 -0.81/10 45 Bd5 -1.36/8 2 22.Nc3 -0.62/10 22 Bf6 (Bh4+) -1.02/8 2 23.Qf4 -0.53/10 29 Bxc3+ (Rd8) -0.96/8 6 24.Rxc3 (bxc3) -0.22/10 5 24...Qb6 -0.48/8 1 25.h4 (Qc7) -0.31/10 9 25...0-0 (Rb8) -0.84/8 3 26.Qc7 -0.28/10 6 Rfc8 (Rfd8) -1.10/8 1 27.Qxc8+ (Qxb6) 0.00/10 2 27...Rxc8 -1.54/8 0 28.Rxc8+ -0.34/10 6 Kh7 -0.96/8 0 29.Rf1 (Rc3) -0.44/10 13 29...Bc6 (Qd4) -0.98/8 2 30.h5 (f4) -0.44/10 10 30...Qb7 -1.14/8 0 31.Rd8 -0.94/10 2 Qc7 -2.02/8 0 32.Re8 -1.78/10 8 Nc5 (Nb6) -2.02/8 0 33.b4 (Rf8) -1.78/10 7 33...Bxe8 -2.84/8 1 34.bxc5 -1.84/10 0 Bxa4 -2.62/8 0 35.Kd2 -1.94/10 2 Bc6 (e5) -2.64/8 0 36.f4 (Rb1) -1.84/10 2 36...a4 -3.52/8 3 37.Ke3 (Bf3) -1.91/10 3 37...a3 -3.88/8 3 38.Ra1 -2.22/10 16 Qa5 -4.10/8 1 39.Kd4 (g5) -3.12/10 15 39...Qd2 -4.26/8 1 40.Bf1 -4.62/10 1 a2 -6.14/8 0 41.Kc4 (Bh3) -5.44/10 2 41...Qc2+ -7.42/8 0 42.Kd4 -5.37/10 0 Qb1 -7.42/8 0 43.Rxa2 -6.12/10 1 Qxa2 -8.06/8 0 44.Ke3 -6.44/10 0 Kg8 -8.22/8 0 45.Be2 -6.75/10 2 Qd5 (Bb5) -8.34/8 0 46.Kd2 -7.28/10 1 Bb5 -8.58/8 0 47.Ke3 -7.37/10 1 Bxd3 -8.70/8 0 48.Bxd3 -7.66/10 1 0-1 Deep Fritz - Chess Tiger 14.0 [E99] pIII450, 3ply/5ply tel-aviv (49), 05.05.2001 W=3.1 ply; 26kN/s B=5.2 ply; 99kN/s 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 Both last book move 13.c5 0.31/3 0 c6 0.23/5 0 14.dxc6 (Qb3) 0.41/3 0 14...Nxc6 (bxc6) 0.28/5 0 15.Qb3+ (cxd6) 0.31/3 0 15...Rf7 (Kh8) -0.28/5 0 16.Be1 (Qc4) 0.13/3 0 16...Nd4 -0.34/5 0 17.Qa4 (Qd1) -0.19/3 0 17...Bd7 -0.54/5 0 18.Qc4 (Qd1) -0.28/3 0 18...Nc2 (Be6) -1.96/5 0 19.Rc1 (Bh4) -0.94/3 0 19...Ne3 -2.06/5 0 20.Qb3 -0.94/3 0 Nxf1 -1.86/5 0 21.Bxf1 -0.78/3 0 Bc6 (dxc5) -1.62/5 0 22.Qe6 (Bh4) -0.72/3 0 22...Nd7 (dxc5) -2.06/5 0 23.Bf2 (cxd6) -0.62/3 0 23...Nf8 (dxc5) -1.90/5 0 24.Qb3 (Qc4) -0.72/3 0 24...a5 (dxc5) -1.06/5 0 25.Be2 (cxd6) -0.59/3 0 25...a4 (dxc5) -1.72/5 0 26.Qc4 (Qd1) -0.69/3 0 26...dxc5 (Qf6) -1.38/5 0 27.Nxc5 -0.50/3 0 a3 -1.22/5 0 28.Rd1 (bxa3) -0.66/3 0 28...Qe8 -1.16/5 0 29.b4 (bxa3) -0.69/3 0 29...b6 -1.36/5 0 30.b5 -0.59/3 0 bxc5 -1.20/5 0 31.bxc6 -0.75/3 0 Ne6 (Rc8) -0.56/5 0 32.Rd6 (Nb5) -0.03/3 0 32...Nd4 -1.00/5 0 33.Qd5 (c7) -0.47/3 0 33...Bf8 (Nxe2+) -0.64/5 0 34.Rd7 -0.66/3 0 Qe6 (Nxe2+) -0.60/5 0 35.Bc4 (Qxe6) 0.50/3 0 35...Rxd7 (Qxd5) 3.70/5 0 36.cxd7 2.31/3 0 Kg7 (Rd8) 4.54/5 0 37.Qxa8 3.34/3 0 Qxd7 4.94/5 0 38.Qxa3 3.50/3 0 Be7 4.94/5 0 39.Nd5 3.66/3 0 Bd6 (Qd6) 5.11/5 0 40.Qd3 (Qa8) 3.78/3 0 40...h6 5.14/5 0 41.Bh4 (Qc3) 4.00/3 0 41...Kf8 (g5) 4.88/5 0 42.Bf6 4.16/3 0 Qe8 (Qa4) 4.88/5 0 43.Nb6 (a3) 4.19/3 0 43...Bc7 4.64/5 0 44.Qb1 3.66/3 0 Bd6 (Bd8) 4.82/5 0 45.a4 (Nd5) 4.09/3 0 45...Bc7 (Qc6) 5.24/5 0 46.a5 4.00/3 0 Qc6 (Bd8) 5.52/5 0 47.Nd5 4.38/3 0 Bd6 (Bxa5) 5.92/5 0 48.a6 4.47/3 0 Qa4 6.50/5 0 49.Qc1 (Nb6) 4.47/3 0 49...Qa5 5.80/5 0 50.Qd1 (Kf2) 4.50/3 0 50...Qa3 5.62/5 0 51.Qe1 (Nb6) 4.44/3 0 51...Qb2 (Qa4) 5.68/5 0 52.a7 (Kf1) 4.50/3 0 52...Qa3 6.10/5 0 53.Qh4 4.28/3 0 Qa1+ (Qc1+) 7.00/5 0 54.Bf1 4.25/3 0 Qxa7 (Kf7) 7.90/5 0 55.Qxh6+ 5.00/3 0 Ke8 8.74/5 0 56.Qh8+ 5.53/3 0 Bf8 9.38/5 0 1-0 Uri
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