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Subject: Re: What do programmers think about a chess algorithm??

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 16:36:21 12/10/02

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On December 10, 2002 at 19:16:06, Ingo Lindam wrote:

>On December 10, 2002 at 18:54:33, Dann Corbit wrote:
>
>>On December 10, 2002 at 18:44:55, Ingo Lindam wrote:
>>
>>>On December 10, 2002 at 18:30:42, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>
>>>>If I have a king and a rook verses a king, I can store a perfect solution to the
>>>>puzzle in a tree.  I can use only sqrt(n) possible states to form the solution
>>>>and the solution will be optimal.  You may find another solution, but it will
>>>>not be superior to mine in any way.
>>>
>>>Dann,
>>>I am sure I can proof KR vs. K is won just using a pencil and a single sheet of
>>>paper...
>>>
>>>do I get the fields price for that?
>>
>>Will it be a proof for an aribitrary position?  Or a proof for an individual
>>position?
>>
>>An example is *NOT* a proof.  In order to *prove* something you must show that
>>there are *ZERO* exceptions.
>>
>>Now, with a king, a rook and an opponent king, there are less than:
>>64*63*62 possible positions (many of them being illegal positions).
>>
>>The total is therefore less than 249984 and the square root of that is 500.
>>
>>Will you provide a formal proof with less than 500 pieces of information in
>>total that shows it will work for every conceivable board state?
>>
>>I know you are thinking of an algorithmic solution.  But if you follow the
>>algorithm, you will see that it forms a tree.  From here:
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/4k3/8/8/8 b - -
>>The black king can move to:
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/3k4/8/8/8 b - -
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/8/3k4/8/8 b - -
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/8/4k3/8/8 b - -
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/8/5k2/8/8 b - -
>>[D]8/8/2K5/R7/5k2/8/8/8 b - -
>>
>>You will need to provide a response to each one of these.  It continues forward
>>to solution.  The moves are obvious, but what we are encoding is the tree.  The
>>optimal move will form the minimal tree, if we make it each time.
>>
>>We could use a tablebase, but to *form* the tablebase, we must have formed the
>>search beforehand.
>
>But we don't need to show the shortest win to mate to show that we will mate the
>black king by using a given algorithm.

If we do not prove the shortest mate, then we will have to prove a longer one,
won't we?

Otherwise, we will not have proven anything.

Algorithm proving is also a lot harder than most people think.  That is why
program proving is rarely performed.  It's too expensive.



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