Author: Uri Blass
Date: 23:18:04 02/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 16, 2003 at 16:25:09, Amir Ban wrote: >On February 16, 2003 at 12:10:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On February 16, 2003 at 07:59:54, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On February 15, 2003 at 13:06:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I disagree with the "played like a super-GM" player, however. I doubt you >>>>will find _any_ 2200 FIDE player that would play as badly as DJ played in >>>>the first three games, up until move 30 or so. Game 1 would not have been >>>>played by any 2000 player I know, myself included. So saying that it has >>>>super-GM positional understanding is _way_ _way_ offbase. Yes, it played >>>>good moves at times. But it also played _horrible_ moves at times. And I >>>>am not just talking about tactically horrible moves such as the blunders that >>>>Kasparov dropped on the board, I am talking about moves such as taking the >>>>g-pawn and getting exposed to a horrific attack. >>>> >>> >>>I can't agree with any of this. >>> >>>It would be good to back the statement that Junior played the "first three >>>games, up until move 30 or so" worse than 2200 with some concrete examples of >>>where a 2200 player would play better. The three games lasted 27, 30 & 36 moves, >>>so what does this mean at all ? >> >> >>Take game 1. I don't know of _anybody_ that would play like that, except >>for some computers. Totally lost. >> > >This is handwaving and doesn't answer the question > > >>Take game 2. Every GM criticized the idea of "winning the exchange" instantly. >>It took me (and other lowly humans) a lot longer to conclude "this looks very >>dangerous for white, where prior to accepting we all thought white had a better >>position. >> >>Take game 3. Taking the g-pawn to open a file in your own king's face. Did >>you hear _any_ IM/GM player that thought that was a good move? I didn't and >>we had _several_ on ICC. >> > >Why would they say it's a good move when it's the only move ? See more below. > > >>So in the first three games, the program voluntarily self-destructed, even >>though it did win a game due to a simple-to-see blunder by the opponent, and >>it managed to draw game 2 where it could have lost, even though it was clearly >>better in the opening. >> >>That's not to say that DJ didn't play well at times, but it did _not_ play >>"super-GM position moves" in _those_ games. Perhaps it did a few times. But >>a few times is not enough when playing a super-GM. >> >>> >>>The one example you give, of 10... Nxg4 in game three, is wrong. Taking the pawn >>>is the only move that does not lose quickly. I assume that what you prefer is >>>what crafty would play, which I see is 10... h6. I don't know if this is >>>apparent to a 2200 player, but 10... h6 11. g5 is hopeless for black. Crafty >>>does not even expect 11. g5. >> >>No. I suspect Crafty would do the same thing. Notice that I didn't say that >>I thought Crafty was better than DJ, because I _don't_. >> > >You did not get my meaning: > >1. Nxg4 is the only move here >2. Crafty doesn't play it but h6, a weak move > >Criticizing Nxg4 is more of a weak player's reflex than a serious comment. > > >> >> >>> >>>The picture you give of Kasparov missing won positions due to making "tactically >>>horrible moves" against an opponent who shows tactical resilience (while playing >>>like a positional patzer) simply did not happen in this match. Maybe you have >>>been watching crafty on ICC, but not Deep Junior in NYC. >> >> >>Sorry, but I watched _every_ game. I didn't get to see all of the last three >>games, but I watched games 1-3 from start to finish. If you are happy with the >>decisions it made, and if you are convinced it played like a super-GM in those >>three games, that's up to you. To my eye, and to the eyes of the GM/IM players >>that were analyzing on ICC, that opinion was not prevalent. >> >>> >>>Kasparov did not make any real blunders in this match, at least not the way I >>>understand "blunder" as a move that he and much lesser players would in normal >>>circumstances easily avoid. Kasparov's motives in describing his mistakes as >>>"fingerfehlers" are obvious, since if they were so, then they somehow don't >>>count and we have to count the games he lost as surely drawn, and those he drew >>>as surely won, but we don't have to buy that. >> >>Certainly he did. Game two comes to mind. He had a forced draw. He made >>a move that led to a forced loss. That is a blunder in _any_ book. (Ng6+ >>was the forced draw, Rh5 was an outright blunder.) >> >> >>> >>>To describe 32. Rh5 of game 3 as a blunder is a gross misrepresentation. It >>>misses a rather spectacular mate possibility. Not something that one sees in a >>>blitz game (not even Eduard Nemeth). >> >> >>No, but everyone saw Ng6+ instantly, and it only took a few seconds for GM >>players to say "oh no" after Rh5. (of course it took the comps a few milli- >>seconds to see Rh5 was bad). >> > >Did you actually look into the variation he missed ? Please play through it on a >real chessboard, then come back here and tell me it's an "outright blunder" and >the GM's would see it in a few seconds. I think that the real variation that should be easy for GM's to see is not the Na1 that is not a standard square for the knight. 32...Nxd4 33.Ng6+ Kg8 34.Ne7+ Kf8 35.Rxh7 Qd2+ 36.Kxb3 Rd3+ is a longer mate but is simpler to see. Not seeing a line like that is a mistake that I expect most GM's to avoid but I saw cases when GM's including kasparov played worse blunders(in one game against Tal Kasparov was 2 pawns up and blundered and after tal won a piece by 2 checks kasparov had to fight for a draw and I also remember that kasparov lost a game against kramnik because of a blunder that is more simple to avoid). I think that it may be interesting to ask strong players who did not see the game to give analysis of 32.Rh5 without a computer. It may be interesting how many will say that black is winning because of 35...Na1+ and how many players are going to say that black is winning because of 35...Qd2+ Uri
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