Author: Omid David Tabibi
Date: 17:24:23 02/17/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 17, 2003 at 11:29:59, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 17, 2003 at 01:54:24, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 16, 2003 at 21:45:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On February 16, 2003 at 21:01:43, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>> >>>>>So you _think_ that is why the computer took the pawn? Rather than just >>>>>"taking a pawn?" BTW most programs would have played that move. Do you think >>>>>they _all_ understood what was going to come down that file as a result of >>>>>their _voluntarily_ opening it up to win a pawn??? >>>>> >>>>>I don't. At least not mine... >>>> >>>>I don't quite see the relevance of your this. >>>>You gave Nxg4 as an example of a horrible move, I argued that its not a horrible >>>>move. I guess you still think Nxg4 is horrible? If so, we agree to differ. >>> >>> >>>I think that in general principle, Nxg4 is _bad_. If it _happens_ that it is >>>the >>>best move here, so be it, but I'd bet that a program thinks that black is >>>better, >>>and that's wrong. >> >>I bet that it does not think that black is better. >> >>Even an old version(Junior7) gives advantage for white. >>My program(Movei) also gives a small advantage for white and likes Nxg4. > >I am talking about "black is better after Nxg4 than after another move." IE the >score goes _up_ for taking the pawn. > >> >>Nxg4 does not win a pawn because white takes the h7 pawn so I see no reason to >>think that programs evaluate black as better. >> >>It is possible that the program planned other things against g4 but understood >>later that they are bad. >> >>Saying that the program played bad only because of the fact that it got bad >>position is wrong. > >Eh? So I can play _good_ and still get a bad position? :) > >Then I have been playing "good" since I started playing chess at age 7. :) > > >> >>programs are not perfect but against kasparov even GM's can get a bad position >>in the opening. >> >>If the program played the opening like 2500 and the rest of the game like 2900 >>then I think that it is not wrong to say that it played like a super GM. > >Yeah, but do you think it played "the rest of the game like 2900"??? > >I don't. Again, games 1 2 and 3 could have been all losses, easily, and should >have >ended 2.5-.5 at least. That's "super-GM" level chess? Particularly after >looking at >game 1? > >Another criteria for super-GM chess (IMHO): In which game did the comp have any >sort >of initiative out of the opening? Perhaps in game 5 after the sac, and even >that is not a clear >good move as most seem to think it loses. If you look at the 1997 match, DB2 >played clearly >strong chess and had an initiative in several of the games. Game 2 comes to >mind as a game >with only one flaw, that of Kasparov resigning when he should not have. But >Kasparov was >defending the entire game. In which game in _this_ match do you see that >happening? And I >don't particularly assess DB2 as "super-GM" stuff myself. Very strong. Very >consistent. Just >like Deep Junior. > >But I tend to play down the hyperbole. > >>Uri Genesis' analysis: depth time score variation 1-> 0.00 -0.77 1... f8e8 nodes 54 nps 0 q 50% hhits 0% 2-> 0.01 -0.29 1... h7h6 2.g4g5 nodes 789 nps 78900 q 47% hhits 27% 3-> 0.03 -0.17 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 nodes 1976 nps 98800 q 37% hhits 26% 4-> 0.14 -0.24 1... c6c5 2.e1c1 c5c4 3.d3f5 nodes 15250 nps 137387 q 45% hhits 45% 5-> 0.42 -0.09 1... h7h6 2.c3e2 c6c5 3.g4g5 h6g5 4.f3g5 c5d4 5.e3d4 nodes 44260 nps 158071 q 32% hhits 39% 6 0.56 0.04 1... h7h6 2.g4g5 h6g5 3.f3g5 f6g4 4.h2h4 e7g5 5.h4g5 d8g5 nodes 21257 nps 151835 q 35% hhits 41% 6-> 0.89 0.04 1... h7h6 2.g4g5 h6g5 3.f3g5 f6g4 4.h2h4 e7g5 5.h4g5 d8g5 nodes 71322 nps 151426 q 32% hhits 34% 7 1.75 0.06 1... h7h6 2.h1g1 f8e8 3.c3e2 c6c5 4.g4g5 h6g5 5.g1g5 c5d4 6.e2d4 nodes 134364 nps 156055 q 33% hhits 29% 7 2.59 -0.05 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.c3e2 d8c7 4.h7f5 g4f6 nodes 270875 nps 159150 q 29% hhits 36% 7-> 3.00 -0.05 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.c3e2 d8c7 4.h7f5 g4f6 nodes 346034 nps 163764 q 28% hhits 39% 8 4.40 0.12 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.h7f5 d7f6 4.h2h3 g4h6 5.f5d3 nodes 234891 nps 168743 q 36% hhits 33% 8-> 8.81 0.12 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.h7f5 d7f6 4.h2h3 g4h6 5.f5d3 nodes 966854 nps 166469 q 35% hhits 31% 9 11.99 0.18 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.h7d3 f8e8 4.h2h3 g4f6 5.e1c1 e7d6 nodes 567404 nps 178709 q 24% hhits 32% 9 19.06 0.13 1... h7h6 2.h1g1 f6e8 3.e1c1 a7a5 4.c3e2 c8b7 5.c1b1 a5a4 nodes 1890467 nps 184525 q 22% hhits 47% 9 27.36 0.11 1... g7g6 2.h1g1 a7a5 3.g4g5 f6h5 4.e1c1 c8a6 5.d3a6 a8a6 nodes 3396084 nps 183106 q 23% hhits 46% 9-> 30.16 0.11 1... g7g6 2.h1g1 a7a5 3.g4g5 f6h5 4.e1c1 c8a6 5.d3a6 a8a6 nodes 3897877 nps 182561 q 24% hhits 44% 10 43.05 0.31 1... g7g6 2.h1g1 a7a5 3.g4g5 f6h5 4.e1c1 e7d6 5.c3e2 d8c7 6.c1b1 nodes 2268650 nps 176028 q 37% hhits 26% 10 64.65 0.26 1... f6g4 2.d3h7 g8h8 3.h7f5 d7f6 4.h2h3 g4h6 5.f5c8 a8c8 6.e1c1 nodes 6179721 nps 179179 q 34% hhits 30% 10 87.78 0.25 1... h7h6 2.h1g1 f6e8 3.e1c1 a7a5 4.g4g5 e7g5 5.f3g5 h6g5 6.c1b1 nodes 10270639 nps 178269 q 33% hhits 26% 10-> 100.54 0.25 1... h7h6 2.h1g1 f6e8 3.e1c1 a7a5 4.g4g5 e7g5 5.f3g5 h6g5 6.c1b1 nodes 12722150 nps 180786 q 32% hhits 25% Of course ...h6 will be answered by g5 (Genesis needs a little more time to see that). But even in deeper plies it keeps changing its mind between ...Nxg4 and ...g6.
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