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Subject: Re: an evaluation problem of chess programs

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 18:32:25 10/01/98

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On October 01, 1998 at 17:46:47, blass uri wrote:

>
>On October 01, 1998 at 14:15:54, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On October 01, 1998 at 11:40:46, blass uri wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On October 01, 1998 at 08:21:43, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 01, 1998 at 01:11:12, blass uri wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>8/1r5p/6p1/8/P2k4/K6P/1R4P1/8 black to move
>>>>>
>>>>>Many programs are playing Rxb2 because they computes that white is losing its
>>>>>pawn in the pawn endgame and do not understand that after Rxb2 Kxb2 Kc4 Kc2 Kb4
>>>>>Kd3 Kxa4 white is winning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rxb2 is not the first move they want to play because they need time to see that
>>>>>black wins a pawn by this stupid mistake after Rxb2 Kxb2 Kc4 Ka3
>>>>>
>>>>>Is there a program that understand by static evaluation that white is winning
>>>>>with the king at d3?(static evaluation at least 1.5 pawn advantage for white)
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>I get this:
>>>>
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    8  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    7  |   | *R|   |   |   |   |   | *P|
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    6  |   |   |   |   |   |   | *P|   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    5  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    4  | P |   |   | *K|   |   |   |   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    3  | K |   |   |   |   |   |   | P |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    2  |   | R |   |   |   |   | P |   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>    1  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
>>>>       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
>>>>         a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h
>>>>
>>>>Black(1): sc
>>>>end-game phase
>>>>              clearing hash tables
>>>>note: scores are for the white side
>>>>material evaluation.................   1.00
>>>>development.........................   0.00
>>>>pawn evaluation.....................   0.12
>>>>passed pawn evaluation..............   0.24
>>>>passed pawn race evaluation.........   0.00
>>>>interactive piece evaluation........  -0.23
>>>>total evaluation....................   1.13
>>>
>>>I did not ask about the static evaluation of the originial position but about
>>>the static evaluation of the position after the line Rxb2 Kxb2 Kc4 Kc2 Kb4 kd3
>>>kxa4
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>when I do a search, I never get "rxb2" as reasonable:
>>>
>>>programs get Rxb2 as reasonable because of the following line
>>>Rxb2 Kxb2 Kc4 Ka3 g5 g3 h5 g4 h4 Kb2 Kb4 kc2 kxa4
>>>they need time to find this line(more than 1 or 2 seconds).
>>>white also  can win this pawn ending but programs do not understand this.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>first, I let crafty search for > 6 minutes.  *no* Rxb2.
>
>I tried the position with crafty15.20 without tablebases(48M hash tables and 6M
>hashpawn tables) and it found Rxb2 after more than 12 minutes at depth 12 with
>evaluation -0.39
>I used pentium200MMX
>
>I do not see how tablebases can help because the evaluation in the positions
>that they can help is lower than -0.39
>
>Uri



they help because they show this gets *mated*...

see my other post where I took your line and instantly got -Mat19...  ie
black was lost and it saw it instantly..  Remember I don't probe at the *root*
I probe 20-30 plies out into the *search*...



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