Author: Aaron Gordon
Date: 20:34:15 02/21/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 21, 2003 at 23:01:53, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 21, 2003 at 22:00:44, Matt Taylor wrote: > >>On February 21, 2003 at 21:54:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On February 21, 2003 at 21:25:23, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>> >>>>On February 21, 2003 at 20:59:40, Matt Taylor wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 21, 2003 at 14:55:16, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 21, 2003 at 09:47:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 21, 2003 at 08:27:55, Jeremiah Penery wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 21, 2003 at 04:42:21, Charles Worthington wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I am certainly no expert on cpu design and waht you say makes perfect sense from >>>>>>>>>an economic standpoint. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Please explain this to Bob then, because he seems to think it's madness. When, >>>>>>>>in reality, it is simple economic principle, and widely known as such. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But, if todays chips were honestly capable of a stable >>>>>>>>>4GHz frequency then you could clock them there with no additional cooling >>>>>>>>>required. I do not doubt that todays chips can be taken to 3.2 GHz or perhaps >>>>>>>>>even 3.3 GHz and maintain stability but intel has a safety margin built into the >>>>>>>>>upper end chips to insure reliable performance. But even with little knowledge >>>>>>>>>of processor design I would have to say that Bob's argument makes more sense >>>>>>>>>from a logical standpoint. Intel would_love_to produce 4GHz Xeons today that >>>>>>>>>operate at low temperatures...problem is they simply can't do it. At least in my >>>>>>>>>humble opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I'm not saying that the current chips they sell are capable of 4GHz operation, >>>>>>>>in any way, shape, or form. I'm saying that Intel, if it wanted, _could_ >>>>>>>>release chips that were capable of such thing. But right now, there's just >>>>>>>>absolutely no reason for them to do it. For one thing, Intel doesn't want the >>>>>>>>P4 Xeons to be _too_ fast if it can help it, because they don't want to eat into >>>>>>>>Itanium sales. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That logic is circular. They can make faster xeons but they can't make faster >>>>>>>Itaniums??? >>>>>> >>>>>>This may be true. Intel actually is going to wait a while before they release a >>>>>>faster P4 and most likely the reason I'm going to suggest is why they may not be >>>>>>producing faster Itaniums. Right now the P4-3.06GHz is 110 watts, this is a >>>>>>*LOT* of heat for a heatsink and fan to cope with. Intel has to figure some >>>>>>people that haven't a clue about cooling will take their new dell/gateway/etc >>>>>>and stuff it under their desk, let papers pile up infront of the vents, etc. >>>>>>Never clean the dust out and whatnot. This will most likely result in a cpu temp >>>>>>of at or over 70C with the regular Intel heatsink/fan. Imagine if they dropped a >>>>>>P4-3.2 to 3.4ghz into the market? You'd be hitting cpu temps that'd fry the chip >>>>>>in those situations. >>>>>> >>>>>>About the Itanium, it's even hotter. I saw the Itanium 800, Itanium-2 800, 900, >>>>>>1GHz all listed as 130 watts. This is pretty insane as is. I don't know how the >>>>>>Itanium servers are put together but some of them probably have liquid cooling. >>>>>>If not then you're going to have MAJOR problems with ANY heatsink today. They >>>>>>need to get the wattages down a LOT before they can ramp the clock speeds up. >>>>> >>>>>Intel plans at least a 3.2 GHz by June. I want to say they're hitting 3.6 GHz by >>>>>June. I don't remember. >>>>> >>>>>60 W is "pretty insane" compared to the 486 I have on my desk. I used to leave >>>>>the case off, and it always felt like the CPU was naked sitting there with no >>>>>heatsink and fan. I looked up the wattage at one point; it's under 1 W. >>>>> >>>>>I remember a side project my Dad worked on when I was younger. Our garage door >>>>>controller fried during an electrical surge, so he decided to build his own. >>>>>After he built it, he discovered thermal issues with some of the components, so >>>>>we flattened a penny and attached it for a heatsink. Obviously the heatsinks we >>>>>use on modern processors are much more sophisticated, but I think the cooling >>>>>solutions will improve to meet demand. >>>>> >>>>>-Matt >>>> >>>>That'd me we'll all be going liquid soon then. Heatsinks can only get so >>>>big/bulky. If you get TOO big it'd just be in the way, cause the PC to be too >>>>heavy (imagine a 30lbs copper heatsink..), etc. Liquid cooling is quiet, >>>>reliable if done properly and not heavy at all, especially if you use an inline >>>>system and small radiator. >>>> >>>>What I think would be neat would be a mini freon compressor.. :) If you can >>>>cascade two very small compressors and vent the heat out of the back that'd >>>>probably be the perfect solution for years & years to come. Have some sort of >>>>thermostat to monitor the cpu temp, perhaps keep it at a constant 75F. I'll be >>>>doing something similar but with much larger compressors (2-3hp each) and I >>>>won't be limiting the temperature at all.. =) >>> >>> >>>I dont think liquid will become mainstream. Supercomputers used to do this, >>>such as Crays. And cray went to air-cooling because of the many problems that >>>liquid cooling causes. >>> >>>Of course there are machines like the cray-2 and cray-3 where the silicon is >>>directly immersed into an inert fluorocarbon, but that's exotic, expensive, >>>and _horribly_ problematic (how do you debug the hardware when it is in a >>>liquid you can't be exposed to?) >>> >>>I think the trend to lower and lower voltages is likely to be the future... >> >>On the desktop, the opposite has been the trend. Lower voltages, but higher >>wattage and power consumption. Of course this leads to more heat... >> >>Liquid cooling does have problems, but it is becoming more and more popular >>simply because it's quiet. >> >>-Matt > > >The well-documented problem is reliability. Spring a leak, buy a computer. > >Air-cooling doesn't have that problem... And it is a serious one, as many >cray folks can tell you... > >Peltier works fine, as it is yet another solid state solution that can't >leak, of course. :) I've used peltiers quite a bit in the past and with all the heat they dump you'll need something better than a heatsink to cool it on todays chips. My 172 watt peltier at 24 volts can pull away ~172 watts and at the same time it's dumping over 300 watts. This isn't counting what the CPU is putting off. Unless your heatsink is the size of a volvo you might want to slap a liquid cooler on one of those bad boys... :) I don't use the peltier, though. Uses too much energy, the wires get way too hot and on the hot cpus used today the peltier gets nearly over-powered (cpus wattage is nearly equal to the peltiers maximum wattage). Need to get a cascaded freon system going instead.. :\
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