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Subject: Re: "wrong" bishop + rook pawn - a test position

Author: John Merlino

Date: 07:38:46 05/31/03

Go up one level in this thread


On May 31, 2003 at 01:00:06, Jon Dart wrote:

>Arasan had this position on ICC against messchess a while ago:
>
>[D] Q7/8/3k4/8/5p1P/4p2K/4Bq2/8 w - -
>
>Here Arasan played Qf3. This is a mistake because after Qxf3 Bxf3, the
>position is drawn. Seeing this requires knowledge. After the exchange,
>White will have the "wrong" bishop and a rook Pawn, and so cannot win
>despite being nominally ahead in material. Arasan had access to 5-man
>tablebases, but those don't help here because the position after the
>exchange has 6 total pieces.

Chessmaster 9000, on a P4-2.4, has no problem avoiding Qf3, and believes Qb8+
wins:

Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
0:00	1/4	1.68	8300		1.Qg2 Qe1 2.Qg6+ Kc7 3.Qf7+ Kb6
0:00	1/5	1.90	19854		1.Qg2 Qe1 2.Qg6+ Kc7 3.Qf7+ Kb6
					4.Qf6+ Kc5 5.Qe5+ Kc6
0:00	1/6	2.17	72792		1.Qg2 Qxg2+ 2.Kxg2 Ke5 3.Kf3 Kf5
					4.h5 Kg5
0:00	1/7	0.10	131874		1.Qg2 Qxg2+ 2.Kxg2 Ke5 3.Kf3 Kf6
					4.Kxf4 Kg6 5.Kxe3
0:02	1/7	1.35	477296		1.Qb8+ Ke6 2.Bc4+ Kd7 3.Qb5+ Kd6
					4.Qd5+ Ke7 5.Qg5+ Kd6 6.Qg2 Qd2
					7.Qe2 Ke5
0:02	1/7	1.61	568962		1.Qf3 Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke6 3.Kg4 Ke5
					4.Be2 Ke4
0:02	2/8	0.10	573784		1.Qf3 Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke6 3.Kg4 Kf6
					4.Kxf4 Kg7 5.Kxe3
0:05	2/8	1.24	1016907		1.Qb8+ Kd5 2.Qb5+ Kd6 3.Qd3+ Ke7
					4.Kg4 Qg3+ 5.Kh5 Qf2 6.Qe4+ Kd6
					7.Qd4+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Ke7 9.Qe5+ Kd8
0:07	3/9	1.26	1619634		1.Qb8+ Kd5 2.Qb5+ Kd6 3.Qd3+ Ke7
					4.Kg4 Qg3+ 5.Kh5 Qf2 6.Qc4 Kf6
					7.Qb5 Qg3 8.Qg5+ Ke6 9.Qxg3 fxg3
0:22	4/10	1.53	4771806		1.Qb8+ Kd5 2.Qb5+ Kd6 3.Kg4 Qg3+
					4.Kh5 Qg8 5.Qg5 Qd5 6.Qxd5+ Kxd5
					7.Kg4 Ke5 8.h5
1:04	5/11	2.14	13437598	1.Qb8+ Kd5 2.Qb5+ Kd6 3.Kg4 Qg3+
					4.Kh5 Qg8 5.Bf3 Qg3 6.Qd5+ Ke7
					7.Qe5+ Kd8 8.Bc6 Kc8 9.Qd6 Qg7
					10.Qxf4
2:50	6/12	2.53	36888904	1.Qb8+ Kd5 2.Qb5+ Kd4 3.Kg4 Qg3+
					4.Kf5 Qh3+ 5.Kg5 Qg3+ 6.Bg4 f3
					7.Qd7+ Kc3 8.Qc6+ Kd4 9.Qxf3 Qe5+
					10.Qf5 Qg7+ 11.Kf4 Qc7+ 12.Kf3
					Qc6+ 13.Kg3 Qh1

>One way to test for the presence of this knowledge is this position:
>
>[D] 8/8/3k4/8/5p1P/4pQ1K/4Bq2/8 b - -
>
>where Black should play Qxf3.

If White plays Qf3, CM9000 sees a "draw" with the queen trade in less than a
second:

Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
0:00	1/3	1.05	306		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2
0:00	1/4	1.14	908		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Ke4
0:00	1/5	1.11	2986		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Kg2 Kd4
					4.Kf1
0:00	1/6	1.33	7827		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Ke4
					4.h5 Ke5 5.h6
0:00	1/7	0.10	19709		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:00	2/8	0.10	128461		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:00	3/9	0.10	149860		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:00	4/10	0.10	206288		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:01	5/11	0.10	367220		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:03	6/12	0.10	752610		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:06	7/13	0.10	1711231		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1
0:19	8/14	0.10	4947986		1...Qxf3+ 2.Bxf3 Ke5 3.Be2 Kf6
					4.Kg2 Kg7 5.Bf1

jm



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