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Subject: Re: Interesting comp vs comp position

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 21:55:47 07/15/03

Go up one level in this thread


On July 16, 2003 at 00:21:23, Omid David Tabibi wrote:

>On July 15, 2003 at 23:18:36, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 15, 2003 at 22:05:59, Peter Skinner wrote:
>>
>>>On July 15, 2003 at 15:21:17, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>Here is a position reached in a game on ICC between Crafty and an
>>>>unnamed opponent:
>>>>
>>>>[D]8/2k2p2/7p/ppPK4/6P1/P6P/8/8 w 0 1
>>>>
>>>
>>>The above position was done by a program that obviously did not use the 5 man
>>>tablebases. The only program that I can find in the ones that I have that play
>>>c6 without tablebases is Tiger. All the others almost instantly go to Ke4.
>>>
>>>You were obviously playing a Tiger clone. Odd that it plays it though, and under
>>>all versions. ( Tiger, Gambit, Gambit Agg, Gambit Sui ).
>>>
>>>Nothing else seems to play it. Unless you played a private engine.
>>
>>
>>
>>A program needs to know that c6 loses without having endgame tables...
>
>Agree. Even my old pet, Genesis, produces a draw score after Ke4. And the _only_
>information Genesis has regarding such endgames is a penalty it assigns for the
>average distance of king from all the pawns on the board.

It is easy to see a draw score for king moves and I do not understand what
knowledge prevents tiger to see it.

I also do not understand tiger analysis

http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?306615

Why does tiger dails high on c6 at depth 26.
I suspect that there is some search bug and the problem is not only evaluation.

Uri
>
>
>depth     time    nodes  score  variation
> 1/ 2->   0.01       0k   0.82  1.c5c6
>                                (0kN 1kNPS q=0% h=20% p=28%)
> 2/ 4->   0.01       0k   0.79  1.c5c6 f7f6
>                                (0kN 0kNPS q=6% h=3% p=35%)
> 3/ 5->   0.02       0k   0.88  1.c5c6 f7f6 2.h3h4
>                                (0kN 8kNPS q=1% h=20% p=63%)
> 4/ 7->   0.02       0k   0.77  1.c5c6 b5b4 2.a3b4 a5b4
>                                (0kN 0kNPS q=12% h=16% p=73%)
> 5/ 7->   0.03       1k   0.91  1.c5c6 c7b6 2.d5d6 f7f6 3.c6c7
>                                (0kN 83kNPS q=0% h=30% p=81%)
> 6/ 9     0.04       2k   0.76  1.c5c6 b5b4 2.a3b4 a5b4 3.h3h4 b4b3
>                                (1kN 103kNPS q=2% h=35% p=78%)
> 6/11     0.04       3k   0.91  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                (2kN 206kNPS q=5% h=34% p=79%)
> 6/11->   0.05       4k   0.91  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                (2kN 148kNPS q=6% h=33% p=83%)
> 7/11     0.07       6k   0.83  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                4.h4h5
>                                (2kN 105kNPS q=1% h=38% p=85%)
> 7/11->   0.09      10k   0.83  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                4.h4h5
>                                (5kN 141kNPS q=1% h=38% p=88%)
> 8/13     0.12      18k     ++  1.h3h4
>                                (8kN 273kNPS q=5% h=40% p=90%)
> 8/14     0.15      26k   1.12  1.h3h4 c7c8 2.d5d6 c8b7 3.d6d7 a5a4
>                                4.c5c6 b7a6 5.c6c7
>                                (16kN 280kNPS q=6% h=39% p=92%)
> 8/14->   0.18      33k   1.12  1.h3h4 c7c8 2.d5d6 c8b7 3.d6d7 a5a4
>                                4.c5c6 b7a6 5.c6c7
>                                (23kN 262kNPS q=5% h=40% p=92%)
> 9/15     0.39     108k     --  1.d5e5
>                                (74kN 355kNPS q=1% h=54% p=96%)
> 9/15     0.48     137k   0.13  1.d5e5 c7c6 2.e5f6 c6c5 3.f6f7 c5c4
>                                4.f7g7 c4b3 5.g7h6 b3a3
>                                (103kN 344kNPS q=1% h=52% p=95%)
> 9/15     0.51     146k   0.79  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4
>                                (112kN 340kNPS q=1% h=53% p=95%)
> 9/15->   0.55     156k   0.79  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4
>                                (123kN 333kNPS q=1% h=54% p=96%)
>10/17     0.73     218k   0.83  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4 6.c5d5
>                                (61kN 340kNPS q=2% h=51% p=94%)
>10/17->   0.85     257k   0.83  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4 6.c5d5
>                                (100kN 333kNPS q=1% h=53% p=94%)
>11/18     1.03     321k   0.65  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4 6.c5d5 b4b3
>                                (63kN 354kNPS q=2% h=53% p=94%)
>11/18->   1.21     384k   0.65  1.h3h4 c7d7 2.h4h5 f7f6 3.c5c6 d7c7
>                                4.d5c5 b5b4 5.a3b4 a5b4 6.c5d5 b4b3
>                                (127kN 353kNPS q=1% h=56% p=95%)
>12/19     2.28     806k     --  1.h3h4
>                                (421kN 393kNPS q=1% h=63% p=98%)
>12/19     2.53     897k   0.28  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.h4h5 a5a4 3.c5c6 b5b4
>                                4.g4g5 f6g5 5.a3b4 c7b6 6.d5d6 a4a3
>                                (512kN 387kNPS q=1% h=62% p=97%)
>12/19->   3.13    1142k   0.28  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.h4h5 a5a4 3.c5c6 b5b4
>                                4.g4g5 f6g5 5.a3b4 c7b6 6.d5d6 a4a3
>                                (757kN 394kNPS q=1% h=65% p=98%)
>13/20     3.81    1390k   0.09  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                4.d5c4 c7c6 5.c4b4 c6d5 6.b4c3 d5e4
>                                7.c3c4
>                                (247kN 369kNPS q=3% h=56% p=95%)
>13/21->   5.60    2094k   0.09  1.h3h4 f7f6 2.c5c6 b5b4 3.a3b4 a5b4
>                                4.d5c4 c7c6 5.c4b4 c6d5 6.b4c3 d5e4
>                                7.c3c4
>                                (951kN 386kNPS q=2% h=58% p=97%)
>14/22     8.49    3223k  -0.12  1.c5c6 b5b4 2.a3b4 a5b4 3.d5d4 c7c6
>                                4.d4c4 c6d6 5.c4b4 d6e5 6.b4c3 f7f5
>                                7.g4f5 e5f5
>                                (1129kN 390kNPS q=2% h=62% p=98%)
>14/22    11.76    4522k   0.00  1.d5e4 c7b7 2.h3h4 f7f6 3.e4d5 b7c7
>                                4.d5e4
>                                (2428kN 394kNPS q=2% h=64% p=99%)
>14/22->  12.23    4718k   0.00  1.d5e4 c7b7 2.h3h4 f7f6 3.e4d5 b7c7
>                                4.d5e4
>                                (2624kN 395kNPS q=2% h=64% p=99%)
>15/24    21.61    8469k   0.00  1.d5e4 c7b7 2.h3h4 b7c6 3.h4h5 b5b4
>                                4.a3b4 a5b4 5.e4d4 b4b3 6.d4c3 c6c5
>                                7.c3b3 c5d5 8.b3c3
>                                (3750kN 399kNPS q=1% h=59% p=99%)
>15/24->  24.10    9433k   0.00  1.d5e4 c7b7 2.h3h4 b7c6 3.h4h5 b5b4
>                                4.a3b4 a5b4 5.e4d4 b4b3 6.d4c3 c6c5
>                                7.c3b3 c5d5 8.b3c3
>                                (4715kN 396kNPS q=1% h=60% p=99%)
>
>
>
>
>>
>>IE crafty sees -1.0 quickly on my laptop with tables turned off.  It goes
>>better and better for black as it gets deeper..



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