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Subject: Re: REBEL

Author: Anthony Cozzie

Date: 12:33:36 08/31/03

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On August 31, 2003 at 14:55:58, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On August 30, 2003 at 18:05:01, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>
>>On August 30, 2003 at 17:05:45, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>In REBEL as we can read from its homepage it is also 1 instruction.
>>>
>>>Because Ed doesn't know the difference between C and BASIC,
>>>i'll write down the code for REBEL here in C (of course rebel-engine is 100%
>>>assembly so 'decompiling' is not happening here)
>>>
>>>  attackers = MyAtt[sq] & 7;
>>>
>>>He that looks very similar to what i do in DIEP!
>>>
>>>Now fritz:
>>>
>>>  attackers = MyAtt[sq] & 7;
>>>
>>>He HOW SIMILAR that looks to rebel?
>>>
>>>Must i go on?
>>
>>how is this incompatible with bitboards? I don't think there is some law saying
>
>It is incompatible because generating them with bitboards is going to be 6 times
>slower than without and that isn't a joke.
>
>Of course you can use a crippled bitboard version, so converting when having a
>bitboard with moves, the moves to a square and then one by one nail them in into
>the attacktable.
>
>Then you can limit the speed loss to a factor 3 perhaps.
>
>>you can't have bitboards *and* attack tables.  I am giving very serious thought
>>to including Ed-style tables in Zappa.  Crafty's king-safety code is (imo)
>>inadequate.  With pieces like bishops, it trivially doesn't matter if the bishop
>>is at B1 or D3, it still is attacking the king's field.  Maybe at some point
>>Zappa's bitboards will simply get phased out of existence, but I doubt it.
>
>I feel the crucial point is what type of code you use to generate moves, this
>will determine whether your program is a bitboarder or not. Because if you do
>that with bitboards, then your scanning code will be all bitboards too most
>likely. Even more likely you'll hardly have such scanning code (which the
>commercial engines have bigtime).
>
>>They
>>are simply too convenient for some things.
>
>There is many things which are said to be quick in bitboards which i already do
>for 8 years now in a different way just as quick, if not quicker.
>
>But by far the real reason why bitboards seem quick to some, is simply because
>they do not have all that fancy stuff the commercial guys have.
>
>If you don't have something you don't waste system time at it. with 99% sureness
>you can say then also that they won't show up at a world championship either.
>
>Last bitboarder i remember joining a world championship in person has been
>somewhere London2000 - James Robertson.
>
>Note that if i remember well he had written large parts in assembly.
>
>What a waste of time...
>
>>The rotated bitboard masks are L2 yes, but the others (like the k-p square) are
>>probably L1.
>>
>>anthony

I don't think using bitboards and having a big eval are mutually exclusive.
Most amatuers just aren't interested in eval, because its a lot of work, and it
doesn't show up on test suites.

Also, I haven't found a use for attack tables outside of kingsafety and SEE, and
I have quick ways to do both of those with bitboards.

anthony



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