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Subject: Re: Crafty and NUMA

Author: Mridul Muralidharan

Date: 02:46:52 09/03/03

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Hi,

  Wanted to respond with something similar to what is already said down this
thread :)

Only a few comments.

I read the paper describing the DTS implementation to work with recursive crafty
- looks more like a workaround to me, albeit a clever one.
I dont think you have truely appreciated the issues involved in getting crafty
to work on a 128 or 256 or 512 proc ccNUMA box (like the one vincent is working
on) - IF crafty does work with the minor changes/tweaks , then I will be
extremely surprised ! but with all due respect , I dont think I will be :)

Regards
Mridul

On September 02, 2003 at 11:00:13, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On September 01, 2003 at 06:09:48, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>
>>Hi Jeremiah,
>>
>>  If you want crafty to get to work with a decent speedup on a 16 or 32 CPU
>>cc-numa where you have say 2 - 4 processors per node with a significant
>>inter-node latency (like most higher cpu numa boxes ?!)  , you will have to
>>ensure that the way you split , memory usage , etc is optimal - you dont want to
>>access a hash entry in proc 0 from proc 32 when the latency wil be in
>>milliseconds !!!
>>
>>Hope you are appreciating the real world problems - not theoretical issues.
>>If you actually work on these boxes , you will appreciate the problems faced by
>>these developers more - using threads on such a box for parallelism , urggh !!
>>
>>Regards
>>Mridul
>>
>>PS : Forget getting crafty to work on the 500 CPU beast that Vincent is working
>>on without a total crafty rewrite ! The horrors Vincent must be facing is
>>unimaginable - the once he has already mentioned in this forum and I'm sure ,
>>the more horrible ones he may not have !
>>
>
>A total rewrite is _not_ needed.  The search is already designed to work on
>_any_ type of parallel machine.  The issue is allocating data structures on
>the right processor.  This will _not_ be a major change.  I currently use an
>array of split blocks.  What I need is an array of pointers to split blocks,
>so that each processor can allocate a few split blocks in its local memory.
>Then the block allocator simply has to prefer split blocks in the processor
>that will be using them, when trying to allocate a split block for a parallel
>thread to use.
>
>It is something I have on my list of things to do, but the real issue is
>"how to allocate _local_ memory" reliably, without wrecking things on non-
>NUMA machines?
>
>That's why I haven't looked at this lately.  I looked at it a year ago on a
>NUMA alpha box, but unfortunately the code was lost when the disk on that
>machine crashed with no backups.  I got a new disk, but the source changes
>were lost.  This was written around Compaq's UPC compiler..
>
>
>>On August 30, 2003 at 10:40:03, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On August 29, 2003 at 23:41:32, Jeremiah Penery wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 29, 2003 at 18:40:23, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I'm not sure of what/why Prof. Bob Hyatt may have made those comments. But to
>>>>>get a program like crafty to work properly in a numa machine will not be trivial
>>>>>- and it wont be tweaks , but something more.
>>>>
>>>>All multi-CPU Opteron machines are NUMA.  Crafty will work just fine in those.
>>>>It will not be theoretically optimal, but that also depends on the OS to help
>>>>with NUMA issues.
>>>
>>>The OS has to do very little for chessprograms. Just keep scheduling the same
>>>process at the same cpu and physically allocating local memory at that cpu's
>>>RAM.
>>>
>>>Of course for a lot of other services the OS has to do a lot different, yet in
>>>chessprograms we do not need it as most of us, except for example cilkchess,
>>>write their parallellism at a very low level.
>>>
>>>>>Duals , etc count as SMP machine not cc-numa which I was refering to.
>>>>Dual Opterons are NUMA.
>>>
>>>And soon all duals that we can afford will be.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Vincent



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