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Subject: Re: Can your engine break a position open,if the human wants to play a draw?

Author: Anthony Cozzie

Date: 09:55:06 09/16/03

Go up one level in this thread


On September 16, 2003 at 12:16:19, Drexel,Michael wrote:

>On September 16, 2003 at 11:54:09, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>
>>On September 16, 2003 at 11:50:35, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>
>>>On September 16, 2003 at 08:38:33, scott farrell wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 16, 2003 at 06:25:59, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 16, 2003 at 06:10:13, scott farrell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>[d] r3r1k1/1b3pbp/2p2np1/1p1p1q2/pP1Pp3/P1P1P1PP/1B2QPK1/3RRNN1 b - - 0 107
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If a human is playing white, and just moves d1d2, and d2d1, can this position be
>>>>>>broken open?
>>>>>
>>>>>Without analysis I dare to say the position is completely lost for white.
>>>>>h5,Bc8,Bf8,Bd6
>>>>>Black is more or less a piece up and should win.
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Isnt that roughly the line crafty played that I showed below. But I dont see the
>>>>continuation, and neither does crafty.
>>>>
>>>>How do you stop white from playing d1d2, d2d1 ?
>>>>
>>>>Scott
>>>
>>>In this position almost any move order will finally stop white from playing
>>>d1d2,d2d1 because checkmate ends the game :)
>>>
>>>In principle your program should avoid pawn chains against humans.
>>>If your program plays for example 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 (no book of course) or
>>>1.c3 e5 2.d4 e4 then there is something wrong.
>>>
>>>Michael
>>
>>That is the crafty approach, and it certainly works.  I'd rather teach Zappa to
>>understand them, though. I don't see any reason why a computer can't play closed
>>positions well.  Its just a matter of writing some eval code.
>>
>>anthony
>
>In closed positions long-term plans are often important and this is not a matter
>of writing some eval code.
>Of course the human opponent will blunder more often in open positions and the
>computer will make less serious strategical mistakes.
>
>Michael

I agree with you: computers are stronger in open positions.  But it is not clear
to me why computers cannot approximate a plan with eval code.  Granted this
"plan" may be thrown out the window at any time.  In this position, for example:

1.  We have a closed center
2.  Black has a large space advantage, and much greater mobility
3.  Same-side castling
4. The queenside is completely blocked.

Clearly the position calls for a kingside attack.  White is helpless, as black's
has a spatial advantage on the only open theatre of action.

If(1,2,3,4) then I need to plan kingside attack

is equivalent to
If(1,2,3,4) then (if Rook on Queenside(score -= 10)) or various more complicated
versions.

anthony

>
>>
>>>
>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do any engines detect this behaviour and play differently?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There is a player on ICC that is pretty good at doing this to my engine, and I
>>>>>>am trying to stop him with coding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I play with white it with crafty 19.3, with d1d2, d2d1, and this is the
>>>>>>continuation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[FEN "4r1k1/1b3pbp/r1p2np1/1p1p1q2/pP1Pp3/P1P1P1PP/1B1Q1PK1/3RRNN1 b - - 0 1"]
>>>>>>{--------------
>>>>>>. . . . r . k .
>>>>>>. b . . . p b p
>>>>>>r . p . . n p .
>>>>>>. p . p . q . .
>>>>>>p P . P p . . .
>>>>>>P . P . P . P P
>>>>>>. B . Q . P K .
>>>>>>. . . R R N N .
>>>>>>black to play
>>>>>>--------------}
>>>>>>1... Bc8 2. Qe2 Qg5 3. Rd2 Bf5 4. Rdd1 Bf8 5. Rd2 Bd6 6. Rdd1 Qh6 7. Rd2
>>>>>>Raa8 8. Rdd1 Rad8 9. Rd2 Re7 10. Rdd1 Be6 11. Rd2 Ree8 12. Rdd1 Rc8 13. Rd2
>>>>>>Ra8 14. Rdd1 Rad8 15. Rd2 Rf8 16. Rdd1 Rfe8 17. Rd2 Rc8 18. Rdd1 Red8 19.
>>>>>>Rd2
>>>>>>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>with no changes in site:
>>>>>>depth=10 14/36 -1.42 19. ... Re8 20. Nh2 Bf5 21. Qf1 Ra8 22. Kh1 Rad8 23. Qg2
>>>>>>Qg5 24. Ne2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Scott



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