Author: Anthony Cozzie
Date: 09:55:06 09/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 16, 2003 at 12:16:19, Drexel,Michael wrote: >On September 16, 2003 at 11:54:09, Anthony Cozzie wrote: > >>On September 16, 2003 at 11:50:35, Drexel,Michael wrote: >> >>>On September 16, 2003 at 08:38:33, scott farrell wrote: >>> >>>>On September 16, 2003 at 06:25:59, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 16, 2003 at 06:10:13, scott farrell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[d] r3r1k1/1b3pbp/2p2np1/1p1p1q2/pP1Pp3/P1P1P1PP/1B2QPK1/3RRNN1 b - - 0 107 >>>>>> >>>>>>If a human is playing white, and just moves d1d2, and d2d1, can this position be >>>>>>broken open? >>>>> >>>>>Without analysis I dare to say the position is completely lost for white. >>>>>h5,Bc8,Bf8,Bd6 >>>>>Black is more or less a piece up and should win. >>>>> >>>>>Michael >>>>> >>>> >>>>Isnt that roughly the line crafty played that I showed below. But I dont see the >>>>continuation, and neither does crafty. >>>> >>>>How do you stop white from playing d1d2, d2d1 ? >>>> >>>>Scott >>> >>>In this position almost any move order will finally stop white from playing >>>d1d2,d2d1 because checkmate ends the game :) >>> >>>In principle your program should avoid pawn chains against humans. >>>If your program plays for example 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 (no book of course) or >>>1.c3 e5 2.d4 e4 then there is something wrong. >>> >>>Michael >> >>That is the crafty approach, and it certainly works. I'd rather teach Zappa to >>understand them, though. I don't see any reason why a computer can't play closed >>positions well. Its just a matter of writing some eval code. >> >>anthony > >In closed positions long-term plans are often important and this is not a matter >of writing some eval code. >Of course the human opponent will blunder more often in open positions and the >computer will make less serious strategical mistakes. > >Michael I agree with you: computers are stronger in open positions. But it is not clear to me why computers cannot approximate a plan with eval code. Granted this "plan" may be thrown out the window at any time. In this position, for example: 1. We have a closed center 2. Black has a large space advantage, and much greater mobility 3. Same-side castling 4. The queenside is completely blocked. Clearly the position calls for a kingside attack. White is helpless, as black's has a spatial advantage on the only open theatre of action. If(1,2,3,4) then I need to plan kingside attack is equivalent to If(1,2,3,4) then (if Rook on Queenside(score -= 10)) or various more complicated versions. anthony > >> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>>>>>Do any engines detect this behaviour and play differently? >>>>>> >>>>>>There is a player on ICC that is pretty good at doing this to my engine, and I >>>>>>am trying to stop him with coding. >>>>>> >>>>>>I play with white it with crafty 19.3, with d1d2, d2d1, and this is the >>>>>>continuation: >>>>>> >>>>>>[FEN "4r1k1/1b3pbp/r1p2np1/1p1p1q2/pP1Pp3/P1P1P1PP/1B1Q1PK1/3RRNN1 b - - 0 1"] >>>>>>{-------------- >>>>>>. . . . r . k . >>>>>>. b . . . p b p >>>>>>r . p . . n p . >>>>>>. p . p . q . . >>>>>>p P . P p . . . >>>>>>P . P . P . P P >>>>>>. B . Q . P K . >>>>>>. . . R R N N . >>>>>>black to play >>>>>>--------------} >>>>>>1... Bc8 2. Qe2 Qg5 3. Rd2 Bf5 4. Rdd1 Bf8 5. Rd2 Bd6 6. Rdd1 Qh6 7. Rd2 >>>>>>Raa8 8. Rdd1 Rad8 9. Rd2 Re7 10. Rdd1 Be6 11. Rd2 Ree8 12. Rdd1 Rc8 13. Rd2 >>>>>>Ra8 14. Rdd1 Rad8 15. Rd2 Rf8 16. Rdd1 Rfe8 17. Rd2 Rc8 18. Rdd1 Red8 19. >>>>>>Rd2 >>>>>>* >>>>>> >>>>>>with no changes in site: >>>>>>depth=10 14/36 -1.42 19. ... Re8 20. Nh2 Bf5 21. Qf1 Ra8 22. Kh1 Rad8 23. Qg2 >>>>>>Qg5 24. Ne2 >>>>>> >>>>>>Scott
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