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Subject: Re: positions to search deep for hours at 500 cpu's

Author: Drexel,Michael

Date: 23:44:05 09/19/03

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On September 19, 2003 at 20:25:15, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On September 19, 2003 at 19:14:00, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>Some people here have a naive idea of what a Supercomputer can do.
>
>>To search a fairly balanced opening position very DIEP is absurd.
>
>Not really. Just watch the correspondence rating list and how many kilometers
>away from here they come and you'll hell sure start to realize something.
>
>>Any correspondence master will come up with much better results in the same
>>time.
>
>That only happens when the strategy of the computer is the wrong one. Which in
>most positions won't happen in which case it is way stronger. In case of diep
>there is a good positional evaluation then which is very crushing at big depths
>corr game after corr game. Why not ask Jeroen Noomen. Last ICT3 he had a corr
>position where no program would have the positional knowledge to do something.
>
>He tried diep and it found it after a while :)
>
>Good knowledge can do miracles.

Hopefully
You need a miracle to win the Wch.

>
>In tournaments what counts is the boring openings which get played by the Fritz
>& co kure books which lead to very boring positions where computers can just
>shuffle with pieces in far endgames. So that shows both Kure's talent as well as
>how poor these programs perform in middlegame :)

The Kure opening book fairy tale is boring.

>
>Wasting expensive cpu time to just far already solved endgame is bloody nonsense
>all you need here probably is a pc with shredder and egtbs at a fast SCSI
>harddisk.

You are most probably wrong here.

>
>Note egtb's at the machine are in RAM. So you can guess what happens here just
>as well as i do. When it can exchange to a won endgame it will take it, but that
>counts for all programs. In this position capturing a pawn at g6 is
>peanuts to evaluate by a 5 men trivially. So there's really nothing here
>interesting for pc programs to find IMHO.
>
>Just get black into a position where you can exchange to a winning 5 men.
>whether that takes 10 moves or 50 moves is not really interesting i would
>argue.
>
>
>
>>Would 500 cpu's Diep be able to solve (or at least to win) this position:
>>
>>[D] 5k2/4R3/2K3p1/4BbPn/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 89
>>
>>I assume it would shuffle around the white pieces for another 50 moves.
>>
>>[Event "World Championship 35th-KK5"]
>>[Site "Lyon/New York"]
>>[Date "1990.12.01"]
>>[Round "16"]
>>[White "Kasparov, Garry"]
>>[Black "Karpov, Anatoly"]
>>[Result "1-0"]
>>[ECO "C45"]
>>[WhiteElo "2800"]
>>[BlackElo "2730"]
>>[PlyCount "203"]
>>[EventDate "1990.10.??"]
>>[Source "?"]
>>
>>1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8.
>>c4 Nb6 9. Nd2 Qe6 10. b3 a5 11. Bb2 Bb4 12. a3 Bxd2+ 13. Qxd2 d5 14. cxd5 cxd5
>>15. Rc1 O-O 16. Rxc7 Qg6 17. f3 Bf5 18. g4 Bb1 19. Bb5 Rac8 20. Rxc8 Rxc8 21.
>>O-O h5 22. h3 hxg4 23. hxg4 Bc2 24. Qd4 Qe6 25. Rf2 Rc7 26. Rh2 Nd7 27. b4 axb4
>>28. axb4 Nf8 29. Bf1 Bb3 30. Bd3 Bc4 31. Bf5 Qe7 32. Qd2 Rc6 33. Bd4 Ra6 34.
>>Bb1 Ra3 35. Rh3 Rb3 36. Bc2 Qxb4 37. Qf2 Ng6 38. e6 Rb1+ 39. Bxb1 Qxb1+ 40. Kh2
>>fxe6 41. Qb2 Qxb2+ 42. Bxb2 Nf4 43. Rh4 Nd3 44. Bc3 e5 45. Kg3 d4 46. Bd2 Bd5
>>47. Rh5 Kf7 48. Ba5 Ke6 49. Rh8 Nb2 50. Re8+ Kd6 51. Bb4+ Kc6 52. Rc8+ Kd7 53.
>>Rc5 Ke6 54. Rc7 g6 55. Re7+ Kf6 56. Rd7 Ba2 57. Ra7 Bc4 58. Ba5 Bd3 59. f4
>>exf4+ 60. Kxf4 Bc2 61. Ra6+ Kf7 62. Ke5 Nd3+ 63. Kxd4 Nf2 64. g5 Bf5 65. Bd2
>>Ke7 66. Kd5 Ne4 67. Ra7+ Ke8 68. Be3 Nc3+ 69. Ke5 Kd8 70. Bb6+ Ke8 71. Rc7 Ne4
>>72. Be3 Ng3 73. Bf4 Nh5 74. Ra7 Kf8 75. Bh2 Ng7 76. Bg1 Nh5 77. Bc5+ Kg8 78.
>>Kd6 Kf8 79. Bd4 Bg4 80. Be5 Bf5 81. Rh7 Kg8 82. Rc7 Kf8 83. Kc6 Kg8 84. Re7 Kf8
>>85. Bd6 Kg8 86. Re8+ Kf7 87. Re7+ Kg8 88. Be5 Kf8 89. Ra7 Bg4 90. Kd6 Bh3 91.
>>Ra3 Bg4 92. Re3 Bf5 93. Kc7 Kf7 94. Kd8 Bg4 95. Bb2 Be6 96. Bc3 Bf5 97. Re7+
>>Kf8 98. Be5 Bd3 99. Ra7 Be4 100. Rc7 Bb1 101. Bd6+ Kg8 102. Ke7 1-0
>>
>>Michael



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