Author: Tord Romstad
Date: 07:53:52 09/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 29, 2003 at 10:36:10, Alexander Yates wrote:
>In Reply to: Re: Garry Kasparov - My Great Predecessors posted by Mark Young on
>September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43:
>
>
>On September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On September 28, 2003 at 04:38:08, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>
>>>On September 28, 2003 at 00:15:02, Mark Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>H. Pillsbury - Em. Lasker
>>>>After whites 17 move of f5
>>>>
>>>>[D]2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>Here GM Kasparov gives 17..Rxc3 a (!!) mark. With the comment that the move
>>>>Rxc3!! is beyond the powers of even a strong computer.
>>>>
>>>>Is Rxc3 really beyond the powers of a strong computer? Or is the move Rxc3 not
>>>>worthy of a (!!) because it leads only to a draw. This is what the computers see
>>>>after blacks 17..Rxc3.
>>>
>>>
>>> I do not think that 17...Rxc3 will be played by
>>> any computer program. And by the way: I have still
>>> not found a win for Black in the following line:
>>>
>>> [Event "40'/40+40'/40+40'"]
>>> [Site "MyTown"]
>>> [Date "????.??.??"]
>>> [Round "?"]
>>> [White "Neue Partie"]
>>> [Black "?"]
>>> [Result "1/2-1/2"]
>>> [SetUp "1"]
>>> [FEN "2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1"]
>>> [PlyCount "23"]
>>> [TimeControl "40/2400:40/2400:2400"]
>>>
>>> 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+
>>> 6. Ke1 Qc3+ 7. Ke2 Qc2+ 8. Rd2 Qe4+ 9. Kd1 Qb1+ 10. Ke2 Qe4+
>>> 11. Kd1 Qb1+ 12. Ke2 Qe4+ 1/2-1/2
>>
>>I came to the same conclusion. I don't think there is a win after Rxc3 with best
>>defense. This is why computer will not play the move. Computers see Bd7 holding
>>a much better advantage. And it seems the computers are correct.
>
>
>The computers are not correct. They can't see deep enough to find Rxc3!!
>followed by Ra3!
>
>This game I'm sure has been well analyzed by many Grandmasters, not just
>Kasparov, who BTW is the highest rated player of all time!
>
>There are many combinations still too difficult for computers, and that has been
>demonstrated by various tests. Nolot comes to mind...#6 I believe. Regardless,
>we know some combinations are too deep or abstruse for the computer at present
>time.
>
>Even if a computer does find the move, it will take a very long time and it may
>not be for the correct reasons.
I agree about the "not for the correct reasons" part of the above sentence,
but not about the "very long time" part. Gothmog plays Rxc3 at ply 4
after 0.14 seconds on a Pentium IV 2.4 GHz. At ply 11, after about two
minutes, it switches to Bd7. One ply later, after 3'50", it switches
back to Rxc3 again.
It would surprise me if Gothmog is the only program which likes Rxc3.
The amount of sacrificed material is not that big, and it looks like
black gets a promising attack (at least to my eyes, but I am not a
strong player).
Here is Gothmog's analysis of the position:
1 0.58 0.00 291 e6d7
2 0.25 0.01 922 e6d7 b1a1
3 0.48 0.03 2823 e6d7 g2g4 f6g5
4 0.62 0.14 11876 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5g4
5 0.50 0.30 30978 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 e6f7 f8f7 b1a1
6 >= 0.50 0.35 35678 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 e6f7 f8f7 b1a1 f6d4
6 >= 0.52 0.36 35858 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 e6f7 f8f7 b1a1 f6d4
6 >= 0.58 0.37 36847 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 e6f7 f8f7 b1a1 f6d4
6 >= 0.72 0.42 40720 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 e6f7 f8f7 b1a1 f6d4
6 <= 0.95 0.54 55308 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 <= 0.94 0.56 56192 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 <= 0.91 0.58 58747 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 >= 0.86 0.59 59214 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 >= 0.88 0.60 59472 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 <= 0.89 0.62 60322 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 <= 0.88 0.63 62202 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
6 0.88 0.64 62202 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
7 <= 0.86 0.96 102119 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
7 <= 0.84 1.01 107616 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
7 <= 0.81 1.04 112965 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
7 <= 0.73 1.19 135428 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
7 >= 0.59 1.34 154626 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 >= 0.61 1.35 155623 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 <= 0.66 1.40 165248 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 <= 0.64 1.50 181000 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 >= 0.62 1.52 183573 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 >= 0.64 1.54 184816 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
7 0.64 1.54 184816 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 c3b4 f3b3 e6f5 f1d3
f5d3 d1d3
8 >= 0.64 1.80 225185 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4
8 >= 0.66 1.88 237293 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4
8 >= 0.72 1.94 247262 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4
8 <= 0.84 2.56 343893 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 <= 0.83 2.58 349800 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 <= 0.80 2.63 360074 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 >= 0.73 2.67 366284 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 >= 0.75 2.69 369923 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 >= 0.80 2.74 379771 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
8 0.80 2.75 379771 c8c3 b2c3 a5c3 h5f3 e6f5 f3f5 c3b4 b1c2
f6d4 d1d3 b4b2
9 <= 0.78 6.74 985767 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 e2f3
9 <= 0.77 6.96 1037209 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 <= 0.73 7.47 1141427 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 >= 0.67 7.79 1191161 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 >= 0.69 7.80 1193159 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 <= 0.72 7.94 1234649 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 <= 0.70 8.09 1279056 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 g2g4
9 <= 0.69 9.54 1506872 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 b1a1
9 0.69 9.55 1506872 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1e2
f8c8 b1a1
10 <= 0.67 25.47 4042274 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1d3
f6d4 e6g6
10 <= 0.66 26.77 4295331 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1d3
f6d4 e6g6
10 <= 0.62 27.74 4512835 c8c3 f5e6 c3c7 h5f5 f7e6 f5e6 g8h8 f1d3
f6d4 e6g6
10 >= 0.56 31.37 5140230 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 h5g4
10 >= 0.58 31.46 5163001 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 h5g4
10 <= 0.61 32.75 5407304 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 d3c2
f6g5 h1f1 c6c2 b1c2 a5a2
10 <= 0.59 34.08 5664568 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 d3c2
f6g5 h1f1 c6c2 b1c2 a5a2
10 <= 0.58 34.86 5828393 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 d3c2
f6g5 h1f1 c6c2 b1c2 a5a2
10 0.58 34.86 5828393 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 d3c2
f6g5 h1f1 c6c2 b1c2 a5a2
11 <= 0.56 73.13 11911391 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 h5f5
f6d4 f5h7 g8f7 h1f1 d4f6 h7h8
11 <= 0.55 80.41 13189702 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 h5f5
f6d4 f5h7 g8f7 h1f1 d4f6 h7h8
11 <= 0.52 92.24 15240293 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 f7e7 h5g6
11 >= 0.45 118.65 19506306 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6
11 >= 0.47 119.09 19588910 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6
11 <= 0.50 121.06 19993543 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6
11 <= 0.48 123.93 20533675 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6 g2g4 f8e8
11 >= 0.48 124.40 20617912 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6 g2g4 f8e8
11 0.48 124.42 20617912 e6d7 h5f3 d7a4 c3a4 a5a4 f3b3 a4b3 a2b3
g7g6 g2g4 f8e8
12 >= 0.48 183.37 29898046 e6d7 h5f3 f8e8 f1e2 d7c6
12 >= 0.50 230.32 37538531 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 b1a1 b6b2
12 >= 0.56 240.91 39374038 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 b1a1 b6b2
12 <= 0.69 298.95 48722763 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 h5e2 f6e7 g6f5
12 <= 0.67 307.39 50313636 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 h5e2 f6e7 g6f5
12 <= 0.64 314.04 51593461 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 h5e2 f6e7 g6f5
12 <= 0.56 328.26 53952726 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 h5e2 f6e7 g6f5
12 0.56 328.28 53952726 c8c3 f5e6 c3c6 e6f7 f8f7 f1d3 c6b6 d3g6
f7c7 h5e2 f6e7 g6f5
Tord
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