Author: Roy Eassa
Date: 08:13:48 09/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 29, 2003 at 10:36:10, Alexander Yates wrote: >In Reply to: Re: Garry Kasparov - My Great Predecessors posted by Mark Young on >September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43: > > >On September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43, Mark Young wrote: > >>On September 28, 2003 at 04:38:08, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >> >>>On September 28, 2003 at 00:15:02, Mark Young wrote: >>> >>>>H. Pillsbury - Em. Lasker >>>>After whites 17 move of f5 >>>> >>>>[D]2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1 > > > >>>> >>>>Here GM Kasparov gives 17..Rxc3 a (!!) mark. With the comment that the move >>>>Rxc3!! is beyond the powers of even a strong computer. >>>> >>>>Is Rxc3 really beyond the powers of a strong computer? Or is the move Rxc3 not >>>>worthy of a (!!) because it leads only to a draw. This is what the computers see >>>>after blacks 17..Rxc3. >>> >>> >>> I do not think that 17...Rxc3 will be played by >>> any computer program. And by the way: I have still >>> not found a win for Black in the following line: >>> >>> [Event "40'/40+40'/40+40'"] >>> [Site "MyTown"] >>> [Date "????.??.??"] >>> [Round "?"] >>> [White "Neue Partie"] >>> [Black "?"] >>> [Result "1/2-1/2"] >>> [SetUp "1"] >>> [FEN "2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1"] >>> [PlyCount "23"] >>> [TimeControl "40/2400:40/2400:2400"] >>> >>> 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>> 6. Ke1 Qc3+ 7. Ke2 Qc2+ 8. Rd2 Qe4+ 9. Kd1 Qb1+ 10. Ke2 Qe4+ >>> 11. Kd1 Qb1+ 12. Ke2 Qe4+ 1/2-1/2 >> >>I came to the same conclusion. I don't think there is a win after Rxc3 with best >>defense. This is why computer will not play the move. Computers see Bd7 holding >>a much better advantage. And it seems the computers are correct. > > >The computers are not correct. They can't see deep enough to find Rxc3!! >followed by Ra3! > >This game I'm sure has been well analyzed by many Grandmasters, not just >Kasparov, who BTW is the highest rated player of all time! > >There are many combinations still too difficult for computers, and that has been >demonstrated by various tests. Nolot comes to mind...#6 I believe. Regardless, >we know some combinations are too deep or abstruse for the computer at present >time. > >Even if a computer does find the move, it will take a very long time and it may >not be for the correct reasons. > >1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >6. Ke1 Qe3+ 7. Be2 fxe6 8. Qh3! Bc3+! 9. Kf1 Rf8+ 10. Bf3 Qe4! -+ > >There are other variations of course and the B retreat has merit so the machines >most likely will stay with Bd7, instead of moving on to the more complex Rxc3!! > >Just for the record, Lasker made this sacrifice famous, and Rxc3 is now regarded >as thematic. > I have spent a bit of time analyzing with several programs. I think you're right that this is probably a win for Black. It is VERY deep with many variations. Here are a few more: 1... Rxc3! 2. fxe6 [2. bxc3 Rc8! 3. fxe6 (3. Rc1 Qb6+ 4. Bb5 Bd7 5. a4 Bxb5 6. axb5 Qxb5+ 7. Kc2 Qa4+ 8. Kd3 Bg5 9. Ke2 Qa2+ 10. Kf3 Bxc1 11. Rxc1 Qd2 -+) (3. Rd3 Rc6 4. a4 Qxa4 5. Rd2 g6! 6. fxg6 Bg5 -+) 3... Qxc3 4. exf7+ Kf8 5.Qe2 Bxd4 6. Qe8+ Rxe8 7. fxe8=Q+ Kxe8 8. Rxd4 Qxd4 -+] 2... Ra3! 3. bxa3 [3.e7 Re8 4. bxa3 Qb6+ 5. Kc2 Rc8+ 6. Kd2 Bxd4! -+] 3... Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ 6. Ke1 Qe3+ 7. Be2 fxe6 8. Qh3 [8. Kf1 Bd4 9. Rxd4 Qxd4 10. g3 Rf8+ 11. Bf3 Qd2 12. h3 Rf5 13. Qg4 h5 -+] 8... Bc3+ 9. Kf1 Rf8+ 10. Bf3 Qe4! 11.Qg3 [11. a4 Bb4! 12. Qh5 (12. Kf2 Bc5+ 13. Kf1 Qc4+ 14. Ke1 Bb4+ 15. Kf2 Qxa2+ -+) 12... g6! 13. Qh3 Qc4+ 14. Kf2 Qc2+ 15. Kg3 Bd6+ 16. Kh4 Rf4+ 17.g4 g5+ 18. Kh5 Kg7 {and Black forces mate}] 11... Qc4+ 12. Kf2 Bd4+ 13. Rxd4 [13. Ke1 Qc3+ 14. Kf1 e5 15. Rxd4 Qxd4 16. Qf2 Qc4+ 17. Qe2 e4 -+] 13... Qxd4+ 14. Ke2 Qb2+ 15. Ke1 e5! 16. Bxd5+ Kh8 17. Qd3 Qc1+ 18. Qd1 Qxd1+ [{More complex is} 18... Qc5 19. Qd3 Rd8 20. Rf1 Rxd5 21. Rf8+ Qxf8 22. Qxd5 -+] 19. Kxd1 Rd8 -+ {Black should win the endgame.}
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