Author: Sune Larsson
Date: 08:41:19 11/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 16, 2003 at 10:56:28, Bob Durrett wrote: >On November 16, 2003 at 10:36:11, Sune Larsson wrote: > >>On November 16, 2003 at 10:11:52, Bob Durrett wrote: >> >>>On November 16, 2003 at 08:17:37, Sune Larsson wrote: >>> >>>>On November 16, 2003 at 07:10:14, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 16, 2003 at 06:28:37, Sune Larsson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 16, 2003 at 05:38:20, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 16, 2003 at 05:20:04, Gerhard Sonnabend wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hi ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>As you can see since (deep)fritz 7 there is no progress against other engines. >>>>>>>>It looks like that frans has tried to optimize his creation for playing >>>>>>>>against strong humans - a good decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>No >>>>>>> >>>>>>>We have no evidence if new Fritz is better or worse against humans and it is not >>>>>>>a good decision because the customer cannot care less if the program get 99% or >>>>>>>99.1% against him. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No >>>>>> >>>>>> You do not and cannot know what "the customer" cares about. You can only speak >>>>>> for yourself. Do you really think all the tournament players/corr players care >>>>>> about machine vs machine games? Can you even imagine that they just *might* be >>>>>> interested in ideas from a chessprogram that they can use in games vs other >>>>>> humans? At least this is a possibility - yes? >>>>> >>>>>If a program is better then it gives better ideas. >>>>>If a program is not better against other programs then I do not expect it to >>>>>give better ideas for correspondence games when the opponent can use other >>>>>programs. >>>>> >>>>>> Speaking for myself, I welcome this development, i.e. making the programs play >>>>>> more "humanlike" chess (without the human tactical errors of course). Junior >>>>>> is very interesting here - giving up material in cramped positions in order >>>>>> to free the game etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> /S >>>>> >>>>>I did not talk against sacrificing material and I think that it can help >>>>>in comp-comp games(Junior improves in the ssdf list relative to previous >>>>>versions). >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>> >>>> No, you spoke about what "the customer" cares or doesn't care about. As if >>>> you really could know...Or have you made any marketing research in this >>>> area? CB goes for showing the world that their products can level up to the >>>> best players in matches (so there must be some value there for all the >>>> tournament players around, yes? - that's the idea.) I have no doubt about >>>> that the CB-people know what they are doing, in order to increase sales. >>>> I also remember a wellknown name from CB, calling the people in this forum >>>> "just a bunch of computerchess freaks", so I don't think they care much >>>> about engine-engine games - except of leading the SSDF-list with some of >>>> their products. Looks like the value of winning the Wch of computerchess >>>> has decreased quite a bit too. (Just a personal reflection though.) >>>> >>>> /S >> >> >>> >>>First of all, "most people" do not care at all about chess and don't even think >>>about chess computers. >> >> Right. >> >>> >>>Of those who do care about chess, only a very small subset are "CCC types." >> >> Right. >> >>> >>>Nevertheless, my guess is that every chess enthusiast or chess player who can >>>afford it will have some sort of chess computer, usually a PC with a chess >>>engine. I live in the USA so cannot say how common computers are outside the >>>USA. Presumably, computers are commonplace in the more affluent countries, >>>especially in Europe. >> >> >> This is my experience too. One chess engine and some big and good databases - >> like OTB-chess - corr - studies. >> >>> >>>Generally, one might expect chess people to try to determine "which is the >>>highest rated chess engine?" and purchase the best. On the other hand, in the >>>USA it is extremely easy to find and purchase Chessmaster 9000, which is plenty >>>good enough for most everybody. The internet is also a good place for people >>>who are too frugal, cheap, or poor to spend the few dollars needed to get the >>>best. >> >> >> At least in Sweden, and among the players I know, Fritz is the name. "How did >> you come up with this variation?" "I analysed with Fritz." Not Junior, Tiger, >> Shredder, Chessmaster, Hiarcs, Ruffian or Movei. - Fritz -. And it's very >> often enough with one engine. This is not strange - I read somewhere that >> around 80% of all sold CB-programs are "Fritzies". >> >> >> /S > >Reading about Sweden is most interesting. Perhaps people in Sweden do not hear >about Chessmaster 9000 because it may not be marketed there. In the USA, there >are many large shopping malls and most malls have a store selling computer >games. Such stores carry Chessmaster but usually no other chess software. On >the other hand, Chessbase/Fritz products may be heavily marketed/advertised in >Europe and not so much here in the USA. Chessmaster is marketed in Sweden too. In fact I bought my copy at a gaming store and I've seen it in some large shopping malls. But when it comes down to stores specialized in chess items (CD:s), it's all about Chessbase/Fritz products and some Chess Assistent. /S > >The internet is changing everything! Indeed, it may transform the whole World >some day. Nowadays, one can find anything for sale within minutes. Using the >ubiquitous search engines, one can key in "chess" and "computer" and get all >kinds of information about chess-playing computer programs. > >Bob D. > >> >>> >>>SSDF is the only rating organization with any credibility. I bought Shredder >>>only because it made it to the top of the SSDF rating list. Maybe I'm typical? >>> >>>Bob D.
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