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Subject: Re: Shredder wins in Graz after controversy

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:19:45 12/10/03

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On December 10, 2003 at 14:32:05, Uri Blass wrote:

>On December 10, 2003 at 13:41:06, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>
>>On December 09, 2003 at 19:49:40, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On December 09, 2003 at 16:45:37, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 09, 2003 at 15:14:00, Frank Phillips wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On December 09, 2003 at 14:45:25, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On December 09, 2003 at 10:16:51, Frank Phillips wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is too subtle for me.  It is an event between machines with the operator
>>>>>>>acting as a go between (a mistake in my view).  The machine said draw, >therefore the operator must claim the draw.  As far as I can see it just
>>>>>>>another 'move' indicated by the machine and the operator has no right to move
>>>>>>>for the machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By the same reasoning, the machine claimed the draw incorrectly, so
>>>>>>the operator has no right to claim the draw correctly, so he had no choice
>>>>>>but to play on (or resign).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>QED
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>GCP
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not understand what you are saying.
>>>>>
>>>>>My point is based on the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>1.The contest was between machines.
>>>>
>>>>No, between chess engines.
>>>
>>>Please show me that distinction in the ICGA tournament rules.  It is a
>>>game between two computers playing chess.  Nothing more, nothing less.
>>>Further arguments are simply obfuscation.
>>
>>This is your opinion. If the TD thinks otherwise there should be a reason.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>2.The machine in question was the entity that was the engine plus the chessbase
>>>>>GUI.
>>>>
>>>>OK, but the engine was playing, not the chess GUI.
>>>>
>>>>>3.It would have been better if the machines played without human interference,
>>>>>but failing this the operator should not have been able to influenece the
>>>>>result.
>>>>
>>>>This was allowed as the operator should have been the one to ask the TD to be
>>>>allowed to resign...see Darsen post which is complete...
>>>
>>>Operators should not resign.  Programs should resign.  Then there is no
>>>ambiguity whatsoever.  But in this case, the program did its part.  It
>>>popped up a dialog box that had to be dismissed before the game could
>>>continue.  The program can hardly call the TD over _itself_.
>>
>>OK, here we agree and it shoud state "I resign".
>>
>>However since the programmer can fix the value for the program to accept a draw
>>if this is set a -50 the score evaluation of 0.00 will be ignored by the chess
>>engine and the program would not ask for a draw even if able to do it.
>>Do you agree on this?
>>So, to claim that a 3-fold repetion is automatically a draw is your
>>interpretation of the rules, not the rule.
>>
>>If you state that we were lucky we won (a won game) simply because the opponent
>>program did not ask for the draw, I agree, but no more than that.
>>
>>Also you must agree with me that the aim of the Championship is to show (if
>>possible) which program is the strongest and to me this was clear after the
>>defeat against Fritz...this is why I was sure we would have won.
>
>No
>
>The aim of the ssdf is to find which program is the strongest.
>The aim of world championship is to find a winner.
>
>11 games are not enough to find which program is the strongest.
>
>I believe that shredder was the strongest combination of software and hardware
>in the tournament inspite of having less processors than fritz but Fritz was the
>right champion to choose.
>
>
>Uri


Good choice of words.  Anybody that believes that a tournament finds the
best program is really out of touch.  I've said this many times myself.
Some might _wish_ it would find the best program.  But "wish in one hand
crap in the other, see which fills up first".  :)



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