Author: Amir Ban
Date: 03:20:48 12/11/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 10, 2003 at 19:04:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On December 10, 2003 at 18:34:54, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On December 10, 2003 at 18:12:39, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On December 10, 2003 at 17:27:04, Amir Ban wrote: >>> >>>>On December 10, 2003 at 15:29:44, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 10, 2003 at 13:33:46, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 10, 2003 at 13:19:49, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On December 10, 2003 at 10:48:21, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You can still do this with a local FICS server, authors present. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But what's the advantage of autoplay then? >>>>>> >>>>>>- No bungling of repetition draws. >>>>>>- No issues of operator errors and/or fatigue affecting the games. >>>>>>- No time lost in move transmission. >>>>>>- Programmers/operators are more free to move about and relax without fear of >>>>>>missing a move and losing time. >>>>>>- Programs make all the decisions about draw offers, draw acceptance, resigning, >>>>>>etc. The human element is removed and it's true CC. >>>>>>- More rounds can be played in the time specified, reducing costs to >>>>>>participants and organizers alike. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It's all advantages and no disadvantages. >>>>>> >>>>>>Matt >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I can't even believe that question was asked, much less answered. It >>>>>seems intuitively obvious to the casual observer, for those that play >>>>>hundreds of thousands of games on chess servers... >>>>> >>>> >>>>Well, perhaps I don't qualify as a casual observer, but you and Matt are making >>>>no case at all, and shouting "it's so obvious !" doesn't make your case. >>>> >>>>Perhaps the solution would be for you to observe a WCCC and see what little >>>>difference this would make. >>>> >>>>Amir >>> >>>I _have_ observed them. I have seen operator interference. I have seen games >>>that had to be backed up. I have seen time lost because an operator was away >>>from the board for restroom break or whatever. >>> >> >>Operators lose time all the time, going to the bathroom, have coffee, wandering >>to other tables, or even reading CCC. Everybody allows 10 minutes or so for lost >>time, or adjust the clock later, and it makes so little difference to the game >>that I don't know why it should even be discussed. >> >>I've only been attending since 1995, and I don't remember any problem caused by >>operators. >> >> >>>How could you _not_ think that an automatic event would be better? IE on the >>>CCT events we can chat in the games via kibitz. We can chat in channels to a >>>wider audience. This would happen locally where we could gather around >>>interesting games and discuss them without worrying about missing something >>>on our own games. We could use automatic pairings, so that round 2 fires up >>>right after round 1 ends, compressing the event and allowing even more rounds >>>(or fewer days). Etc. I don't see _any_ down-side to getting the humans >>>out of the loop, since the computers are supposedly playing the games anyway. >>> >> >>Sorry, I don't understand this at all. >> >>Pairings are done at the end of a round, by a pairing program. Except for the >>handshake, how do operators delay the next round ? > >I can't ever recall an event where the starting time was announced as 7pm >and at 7pm all N games started. With automatic software this would not >happen. Even more important, start times can be moved up when all games >finish early. But not if we depend on operators as they can go to eat, >knowing the next round doesn't start until 7pm. When it might actually start >at 6pm if everyone were ready. Even more importantly, NO operator time would >be needed or lost. It would be computer vs computer, with no time lost in >relaying moves, whatsoever. > Rounds start at the scheduled times, not because the operators go shopping. If the TD wants to compress schedules, he just says this to the operators, and it happens. It's not the operators, but the spectators and the press who want it to start on scheduled time. Turn on to ICC to view the game of the century on 1100 EST. Oops! It's already over. I have a solution to this: Why not make the *spectators* automatic too :-) Scrappy(C) can watch the game for you, and you'll be free to do more classes. This suggestion mean unmanned, unwatched, un-TD'ed events (i.e. SSDF). Do you think I want to fly to Austria, have breakfast at the hotel, come to the tournament hall, and find out that the championship ended overnight ? > > >> >> >>>As far as observing goes, I observed at the first WCCC event. I participated >>>in the next one in 1977. I missed 80 as it was out of the US and too expensive >>>to attend. I played in 1983, 1986 and 1989. That's six I personally attended. >>>Not to mention 20 ACM events that had just as many entries and just as many >>>problems to handle. The last CCT event went smoothly and quietly... >> >>Well, either things have changed or your memory needs refreshing. > >I have seen bad decisions made. IE with an automatic interface, Fritz >would be the current WCCC champion. The draw claim would have been >handled correctly, the correct result recorded, and a 500-post thread >would never have happened... > It should have been a draw anyway. But just wait to see the length of the thread when the championship is decided by two programs misunderstanding each other while the TD was out shopping. Amir > >> >>I'm not saying automatic is bad, though it would take some time to stabilize: >>How to let the TD have the control he needs and what to do when the damn things >>don't talk to each other, etc. It will work in the end, but since there's no >>clear benefit, why bother ? > >It is just the right way to do things. Humans influence the games, >intentionally and unintentionally. With no human hands in the mix, the >games would be computer vs computer as intended. > >If a program won't play, it loses. The author fixes it before the next >round. But with plenty of free chess servers around, there is really no >excuse in showing up with a program that won't connect and play normally. > >> >>Amir
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