Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:48:14 01/05/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 05, 2004 at 10:39:51, Bob Durrett wrote: >On January 04, 2004 at 23:24:25, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 04, 2004 at 22:52:32, Bob Durrett wrote: >> >>>On January 04, 2004 at 22:19:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 04, 2004 at 13:39:37, Bob Durrett wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 03, 2004 at 23:46:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 03, 2004 at 21:22:51, K. Burcham wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I am not sure how this book learning works for each book move. >>>>>>>The value that is changed, is this only because of the loss? >>>>>>>Is the program using positional values once out of book to change the learned >>>>>>>value? >>>>>> >>>>>>Here is a thumbnail of what I do. >>>>>> >>>>>>1. Crafty remembers the evaluations for the first 10 moves out of book, >>>>>>after each search has been completed. It uses these evaluations to detect >>>>>>a "trend". IE is the evaluation good and getting better? Is it bad and >>>>>>getting worse? Is it good but dropping (ie it grabbed a gambit pawn and >>>>>>is beginning to see that it was bad) or is it bad but getting better (IE it >>>>>>offered a gambit, the opponent took it, and the score is going up). >>>>>> >>>>>>It factors all of that together and marks the book line as good or bad. >>>>>> >>>>>>2. Crafty takes the result of a game when it loses, and updates the book >>>>>>line so that moves tried near the end of the line simply don't get played, >>>>>>and alternatives near the front of the book line get tried next. >>>>>> >>>>>>There is more to it than that, and you can look at the crafty.doc file to >>>>>>at least see what I am doing in more detail. It is _very_ effective. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Lets say e4 is the most solid, dependable first move. >>>>>>>Lets say we lose 25 games with e4. >>>>>>>now we have a learned value for something. >>>>>>>Is this learned value only for e4? >>>>>>>Is this learned value only for the first move, regardlesss of the line played? >>>>>> >>>>>>For me, the entire line gets some "learning adjustment". The closer to the >>>>>>first move, the "smaller" the adjustment. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If program A plays d4 against program B and wins 25 games. >>>>>>>If program A plays d4 against program C and loses 25 games. >>>>>>>If program C plays d4 against program B and loses 25 games. >>>>>>>I am not sure how this helps the high level book. >>>>>> >>>>>>The danger is that you are not learning about the "book", but about >>>>>>the "engines". That is a problem. Fortunately, it is not that common. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is all this learning for only the first book move? >>>>>> >>>>>>No. Crafty learns for _all_ moves along a line that was played. >>>>>> >>>>>>In fact, if you beat it with a line, you can expect to play against that >>>>>>line when you change colors and play it again. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>kburcham >>>>> >>>>>Bob H: >>>>> >>>>>I get the impression that the communication with the book, and it's modification >>>>>is done by a GUI [or UI]. Does this imply that you have modified somebody's GUI >>>>>[or UI]? >>>>> >>>>>Bob D. >>>> >>>>Nope. I have specific code in Crafty. IE LearnBook() which is called by >>>>the Crafty UI after each non-book move is played... And at the end of the >>>>game when the "result" is known. >>> >>>The crafty UI????? That means you are more than just a mere engine designer. : >>>) [you also do UIs] >>> >>>Are you talking about a highly specialized UI you designed for automated games >>>at ICC? >> >> >> >>No. Any useful program has some sort of user interface, otherwise the user >>is not going to be able to do much with the program... >> >>> >>>Just curious. >>> >>>My main interest is in getting a better handle on the division of labor between >>>engines and software external to the engine, such as a GUI, tablebases, and >>>maybe an opening book. [may depend on programmer?] Partly, this is an attempt >>>to find a more precise definition of an "engine." I thought engine developers >>>HATED programming GUIs and UIs. : ) Where does the engine stop and the rest >>>begin? >>> >>>Bob D. >> >> >>Depends on the program. Some have a GUI and it is part of the program. Some >>have a GUI that is separate (xboard/winboard for example). Some don't have >>a GUI at all. All must have a UI of some sort however. > >I guess you force me to reveal my ignorance. I no longer "understand" the >meaning of "UI" : ( > >Bob D. User Interface As opposed to Graphical User Interface Crafty's "native" UI is basically "main.c". But main.c has hooks that will let it interface to xboard/winboard to pop up a GUI-based system, on demand. Or speak moves. Or whatever.
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.