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Subject: Re: how to back up the PV with minimal work.

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 01:23:50 01/22/04

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On January 21, 2004 at 20:53:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On January 21, 2004 at 18:21:28, Tord Romstad wrote:
>
>>On January 21, 2004 at 14:14:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On January 21, 2004 at 13:34:27, Tord Romstad wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes.  This is why it is a good idea not to do IID at all nodes, but only
>>>>at nodes where you are reasonably sure that there will be a fail high.
>>>>You should always check the value of the static eval before doing the
>>>>internal search.
>>>
>>>I don't even think you want to do it at fail-high nodes.  Just at nodes
>>>where you expect a "true score".  At least that is how _I_ have implemented
>>>it.
>>
>>I use MTD(f), hence I *never* get any "true scores" anywhere in the tree.
>
>Why?  I played with mtd(f) for several months right after Don Daily started
>his "you got to try this" many years ago...  I got exact scores, because the
>last two searches have a common "edge" and that "edge" is the true score.
>
>
>>  My
>>intuition
>>regarding PVS is not very good (I have used MTD(f) almost since the beginning),
>>but
>>I don't see any reason not to use IID at all expected fail-high nodes in a PVS
>>search,
>>too.  At a fail-high node, you can return a value before all moves are searched.
>> If
>>your move ordering is perfect, you will only need to search one move.  It
>>therefore
>>makes sense to make some extra effort to make sure that the first move searched
>>will really return a score >= beta, and the most obvious way to do this is to
>>first
>>do a search with reduced depth.  What am I missing?
>>
>
>for the majority of moves, it is easier to find a capture refutation than to
>do an N-iteration search...  I tried it both ways (plus other ideas) when I
>first did this.  What I am doing right now has really proven to be effective
>with no particular down-side or risk...
>
>For normal fail-high positions we have already been doing iterated searches
>for previous depths, so hopefully we get decent ordering here most of the
>time using normal ideas.  The critical positions are the PV nodes, because
>there searching a good move first is not good enough.  We need the _best_ move
>first.  At normal fail-high positions, we only need a move good enough to cause
>a cutoff, not the best move.  IID will provide the best move generally, but at
>significant cost.

I do not see how IID gives the best move at normal fail high position.
It can give one move with score better than beta and not the best move.

I do not claim that finding best moves in normal fail high positions is a bad
idea but it is not IID

Uri



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