Author: Reinhard Scharnagl
Date: 08:25:44 01/28/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 28, 2004 at 08:45:49, Mike S. wrote: >On January 28, 2004 at 06:30:02, Reinhard Scharnagl wrote: > >>On January 27, 2004 at 16:52:59, Mike S. wrote: >> >>>[...] >>>You always argue like engines would be complete unable to play openings >>>themselves. >> >>That is not at all true. I state that using huge libraries during the phase of >>opening is contraproductive to gain improvements in detail evaluating functions, >>which could then better supply engines in the beginnings of chess games. >I basically agree to this point, or at least partially. It's potentiallly (but >not necessarily) counterproductive. I had the impression that you were >underestimating the engine's strength in the opening they have reached already >anyway, in general (or at least the medium to top engines). It is good to feel somehow better understood. Some differences may have risen, because I distinguish between strenght of engines and libraries. Integrating a huge library on my view does not increase the strenght of an engine, whereas it could improve the strength of the entire chess program. May be that this distiction I make is a little bit artificial, but I regard it to be essential. >While the match against Rogozenko (~2520 Elo) seems to indicate that engines (in >this case Tiger 15) are more than competitive even in Shuffle positions - and >therefore I'd guess, even more in positions arising from the classical starting >position they are better tuned for - this indeed doesn't mean that the couldn't >be improved further for that phase of the game. The usual opening libraries will >undoubtely cause, that the focuss of engine improvements isn't so much at the >(early to mid) opening. > >OTOH, I'd like to remind that certain "basic abilities and knowledge of opening >principles" are crucial for engines, and therefore most also have that, because >ohterwise GMs or even other engines prepared for that, could more or less easily >gain a big advantage by playing non-theory opening moves throwing the opponent >engine "out of the book." Since this doesn't work obviously, I thought you're >statements would contradict with the current standard of engine's own openings >strength. Again there seems to be a convergence of thoughts. I am simply arguing for to go the more difficult way playing (somehow compatible) variants like FRC, which cannot use knowlegde gathered through centuries, for to be forced to relay on to be improved generic evaluating abilities. >My main concern was, that newbies get a completely wrong impression of engine's >own opening strength, which are IMO much better than one might think when >reading your statements about it. They really sounded (to me) as if engines >would be opening idiots without a book, which they aren't (maybe that is only my >receiption, not a general one, of what you wrote about it). I think that a lot of the strength you are talking about stems from the big hardware improvements, which can overplay weaknesses of the nearly unchanged handling of positional play especially during the phase of opening. >>>[...] >>>So why expect from chess engines, >>>that they find all this correctly in 3 minutes?? :-)) >> >>You are describing an ultamitive goal. If you deny, that it could be reached >>completely, why also skipping any possible progress in programming? > >I agree again. Of course any progress in any phase of the game is desireable. I >thought our different views or opinions would be about the opening abilities >already reached by the engines, only. Good to see misunderstandings vanishing. My main target is to define a neutral playground highly compatible to traditional chess, which could be a better drosophila to write more intelligent programs, than the conventional game of chess, which is yet "polluted" with too much historically grown knowledge. >Maybe we cannot disagree nor agree :-) because we are talking about different >things (I meant the quality of the status quo, and you meant the chances for >further progress). > >(I think it's not yet time for the "limitation" idea, if it makes sense at all, >but that's another topic IMO. At least not as long these Man vs. Machine matches >are drawn, but not lost by the human top players still.) That moment will come soon, when GigaHz increase. So limitation talks are highly in time. But the reason for my postings has been, that opening abilities have been confused with huge opening libraries. This ended in claiming openings to be less important in FRC, what is definitely wrong. Because most of us (at least me) are no GMs, limitation is already actual. And it could make engines (in the meaning of algorithms) more comparable and coming progresses more obvious. Reinhard.
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