Author: Uri Blass
Date: 16:34:12 02/09/04
Go up one level in this thread
On February 09, 2004 at 18:39:43, Mark Young wrote: >On February 09, 2004 at 13:00:42, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 09, 2004 at 12:06:32, Mark Young wrote: >> >>>On February 09, 2004 at 10:24:30, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 09, 2004 at 10:14:58, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 09, 2004 at 09:21:59, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 09, 2004 at 08:39:31, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 08, 2004 at 22:50:05, Mike Byrne wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If case you have not figured this out by now, my intent it to continue with >>>>>>>>posting all 11 of the Nolot positions, dig up the game score from the actual >>>>>>>>game -- post the orginal comments made by Pierre Nolot (original author of the >>>>>>>>article where these positions were discussed) and Feng-Hsiung Hsu, Deep Blue >>>>>>>>Inventor, who was preparing Deep Thought/Deep Blue for the match with Kasparov >>>>>>>>that was to come in 1995 and took a keen interest in these positions. He >>>>>>>>believed that if Deep Blue were able to solve these type of positions quickly, >>>>>>>>Deep Blue would have a very good shot at defeating Kasparov. It is interesting >>>>>>>>to see what today's software on fast hardware think of these positions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So far these posts have gone very well and I appeciate everyone who has >>>>>>>>particpated in this excercise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nolot #3 is a semi-controversial position as there are many doubters that the >>>>>>>>claimed winning move is truly a forced win. When one also considers the nearly >>>>>>>>200 point in the ratings of the particpants, it easier to understand why the >>>>>>>>favored player, GM Sergey Smagin, now 47, played the daring and very complicated >>>>>>> >>>>>>>[d]r2qk2r/ppp1b1pp/2n1p3/3pP1n1/3P2b1/2PB1NN1/PP4PP/R1BQK2R w - - bm Nxg5; 3 >>>>>>>f3g5 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have studied it too and came to the conclusion that Nxg5 is a beautiful and >>>>>>>very deep win. Nothing controversial about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Please realise Feng-Hsiung Hsu has a rating of a 1000 points or so and his thing >>>>>>>positional 2000 or so. He doesn't realize of course that black effectively is >>>>>>>not playing after Nxg5. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hsu's rating is irrelevant for discussion about this position. >>>>>> >>>>>>I did not study this position but these kind of posts is the reason that people >>>>>>do not like you. >>>>>> >>>>>>You could claim that you believe that Nxg5 is better without becoming personal >>>>>>against Hsu but unfortunately instead of comparing evaluation of positions after >>>>>>Nxg5 and Bxg5 you chose to go for a personal attack. >>>>> >>>>>This is no more a personal attack then you saying GM Kasparov and GM Kramnik >>>>>threw their matches to the computers. >>>> >>>>The point is that the claims about Hsu's level are irrelevant for the >>>>discussion. >>> >>>It is not irrelevant. When talking about a chess position with no clear cut >>>tactics a persons chess level and chess judgement are highly relevant. >> >>The main problem is that Vincent did not give explanation about the position. >> >>It is known that Hsu was never a good chess player so there is nothing new in >>the things that Vincent posted and I see them only as attacking hsu(I think he >>was better than rating of 1000 and Vincent as usually exagarate). >> >>> >>>> >>>>If you want to convince people that somebody is wrong about chess position then >>>>the right way is to talk about chess and not to say that his rating is law. >>>> >>> >>>>In the case of kasparov and kramnik match the question if they lost on purpose >>>>is clearly relevant for the discussion about the level of chess programs. >>> >>>Not when one claims they lost on purpose without any proof what so ever. >> >> >>At least in the case of kramnik the mistakes that were done are circumstancal >>evidence. > >No it is not circumstancal evidence. Not when one can site many examples of both >GM Kasparov and GM Kramnik making very shallow tactical oversites before and >after their matches with computers. > >It is common to see players blunder like this when playing computers. This is >not just true for GM Kasparov or GM Kramnik. > >The stress of playing a computer is the cause of most of these blunders. It is a >different kind of chess then playing a human. > >Unless one can site proof that GM Kasparov and GM Kramnik cheated the public >with fake a match. It stands as a baseless attack on both GM Kasparov and GM >Kramnik. > >> >>I usually do not do mistakes like that in tournament games. > >I don't have your games, but I would not be surprised if many could be found. I do not claim that I do not blunder and I do not claim that I never blunder by something that computers need a short search to avoid. The point is that I usually do not blunder by something so simple like kramnik did when computers needs one ply search to see that a move is losing a piece and you only need to calculate 3 plies forward after your move(check escape capture). Here is an example of one of my blunders that is slightly harder to avoid than the blunder of kramnik. [D]6rk/1p1Q3p/1qp2p1N/4p3/1p2P3/3P1PbP/2p5/5R1K b - - 0 30 I played Bf4 and lost because of a forced mate when Qf2 was winning. I simply did not see on time Nf7+ Kg7 Ng5+ Kg6 Qxh7+ Kxg5 h4# The main problem was that I did not consider Ng5+ because g5 was so protected but you need to calculate 5 plies forward after Bf4 to see Qxh7+ to start to suspect what is going on when Kramnik needed to see less plies forward to avoid his blunder. I thought also about Qf2 in the game but did not see that it is winning and again more than 3 ply search is needed to see the final result of it and I had not unlimited time so I had to decide about a move. Uri
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