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Subject: Re: Why dont engines support the egtb format that Chessmaster uses?

Author: Anthony Cozzie

Date: 11:33:23 04/02/04

Go up one level in this thread


On April 02, 2004 at 14:09:33, Eugene Nalimov wrote:

>On April 02, 2004 at 13:43:31, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>
>>On April 02, 2004 at 13:16:24, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On April 01, 2004 at 21:15:43, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 20:40:58, Eugene Nalimov wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 19:05:09, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 18:38:59, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 18:29:27, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 17:59:38, Eugene Nalimov wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On April 01, 2004 at 15:16:34, Marc Bourzutschky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The Chessmaster format is indeed better
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What does it mean "better"? :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It stores less information, thus compresses better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I have an idea that I think would be helpful if you should be so kind as to
>>>>>>>>perform it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Write a scanner that reads your wonderful EGTB files and spits out a two bit
>>>>>>>>state only for each position (won/lost/drawn/broke) to create bitbase files.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The reason I suggest it is that a bazillion programmers won't have to reinvent
>>>>>>>>the wheel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I suggest the use of the bitbase files early in the search (completely pulled
>>>>>>>>into ram) and then EGTB at the leaves if the bitbase indicates it is worthwhile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You must mean it the opposite way, bitbases at the leaves and EGTBs a near root?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think it would be better to use bitbases in the entire search and only use
>>>>>>>full EGTBs when the position is at the root.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Or, if you want the search to eventually return mate scores, probe EGTBs when
>>>>>>>bitbases say it is won and beta>=mate_bound or bitbases says it lost and
>>>>>>>alpha<=-mate_bound.
>>>>>>>Perhaps probing directly into EGTBs when window allows it would be faster,
>>>>>>>matter of tuning of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I guess I had not thought about it carefully enough.  I imagined using bitbases
>>>>>>to get a won/lost/drawn opinion (at all nodes).  But unless you know the exact
>>>>>>value of the leaves, I don't see how you can choose the best move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I imagined something like this:
>>>>>>If the best evaluation is drawn or lost, who cares.  Do whatever move is among
>>>>>>the suggested list.
>>>>>>If the best evaluation is won, then:
>>>>>>Examine the bottom leaves that are won and perk the correct values back up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How will we otherwise find the true value?  I am afraid I don't understand how
>>>>>>it can work.
>>>>>
>>>>>In my "TODO" list. But let me finish 6-men TBs first...
>>>>>
>>>>>Simple way is to keep both w/d/l and full tables. You need to probe full table
>>>>>only when position is OTB. Otherwise you probe w/d/l table. W/d/l tables are
>>>>>smaller, and relevan ones can be always loaded to RAM, so you can probe them
>>>>>everywhere in the search, including Q-search.
>>>>>
>>>>>Probing of the full TBs can be much slower than it is now, probably ~1 sec
>>>>>should be fine. In theory that allows to use better decompression algorithm.
>>>>>
>>>>>And you don't need 2 bits per position. 1.6 bits are enough (5 positions per
>>>>>byte).
>>>>
>>>>How about an interface to your EGTB system that takes a standard EPD string as
>>>>input?
>>>
>>>The problem is that everyone must first post onto CCC to get permission to use
>>>his code. Email he never answers until there is a posting onto CCC. Only from 1
>>>american author i know he got directly permission at his first email. The others
>>>after half a year or so post onto CCC and only then get an answer.
>>>
>>>So your only problem is not the EPD, but the legal permission for each user to
>>>use that program, even if it is put at a commercial cdrom.
>>>
>>>As shipping an email will not get answerred. I have not heard a single european
>>>programmer so far who got permission by email within 6 months.
>>>
>>>>That way, it would be really simple for people to interface to it that have not
>>>>already done so.  Just about every chess program has a "convert board position
>>>>to EPD" function of some kind.
>>
>>
>>Hmm, actually that is true.  I've emailed Nalimov 2-3 times asking for
>>permission to use the EGTB code with no answers so far.
>>
>>anthony
>
>According to my archive I replied on 7/11/2003.
>
>Thanks,
>Eugene

Which address did you reply to? (@andrew, @earthlink, @sparta, @verizon) ?  And
what was the date of the email you replied to?

I gave up on my andrew account this summer.  For amusement I checked it today.
4,400 messages, all spam :) Maybe that would explain the mystery . .

anthony



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