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Subject: Re: Behind Deep Blue: 3rd print with new Hsu afterword

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 07:04:36 05/10/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 10, 2004 at 09:57:19, Uri Blass wrote:

>On May 10, 2004 at 09:45:20, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On May 10, 2004 at 09:42:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On May 10, 2004 at 08:11:34, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 10, 2004 at 07:33:38, martin fierz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>there are instances where pushing pawns in front of your king is ok. there are
>>>>>others where it's not ok. they are rather easy to distinguish most of the time
>>>>>(some simple rules are sufficient for this) and i'm surprised that you don't
>>>>>understand that it's not such a great idea here...
>>>>
>>>>Rules of thumb are good but not great, there are always exceptions and computers
>>>>are experts at finding them. It is possible that all other moves simply lose
>>>>faster.
>>>>
>>>>>i know you are a born
>>>>>skeptic, but perhaps you should learn to trust people with more experience
>>>>>sometimes :-)
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes, but maybe not this time ;)
>>>>Just look at the thread below
>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?364474
>>>>
>>>>I don't 100% trust analysis made without computer assistance, even when it comes
>>>>from GM's. It is only too human to err.
>>>>
>>>>>i'm not going as far as vincent of course to say that "after ...g5 white wins
>>>>>with eyes shut". that is not true of course. but it's obvious that things aren't
>>>>>progressing normally here if you have to play ...g5.
>>>>
>>>>I think the original intent was to show that DB was not at the level of "modern"
>>>>programs _because_ it played g5. Now we have other programs playing it too so
>>>>this bit of "proof" goes out the window, IMO.
>>>
>>>However it played like 7 very poor moves in game 1 and that for every game
>>>except game 6 and game 2 it just made a few (shuffle moves are not good but are
>>>not losing the game sometimes).
>>>
>>>Antonnie just quoted here what was wrong in his eyes, but there is a shitload of
>>>other very poor moves.
>>>
>>>Let me just first tell you that deep blue was very soon out of book.
>>>
>>>Starting with move 3 where it already makes a mistake :
>>>
>>>3 .. Nd7? best is bxf3 diep plays bxf3 and not nd7.
>>>10.. h6?  very poor move. lucky diep doesn't play that. 10..e5 looks better
>>>          but important is to avoid h6
>>>11.. Qa5? very poor move, better is for example Qe7
>>>12.. Bc7? very poor move. A real NULLMOVE
>>>13.. g5?  very poor move now there is no way to escape from a zero against
>>>          even poor shuffle players
>>>16.. Qb6  this is not the best move
>>>22.. g4?
>>>
>>>I hope you realize Seirawan had an easy job commenting on these games. The bad
>>>moves made are *so* poor, that he has hardly time to give better alternatives
>>>for choice mistakes like 16..Qb6.
>>>
>>>I am sure you do not realize it, but if you play 2 moves like Qb6 against
>>>kasparov in a normal game you're dead.
>>>
>>>Deep Blue plays however 6 completely losing moves in this game so all the poor
>>>moves we do not even discuss here. We just discuss at the utmost beginners level
>>>here. Not even at the higher levels where making wrong choices loses already.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Vincent
>>
>>by the way, i hope you realize in game 1, kasparov also played utmost beginners
>>level. He later complained a few years later that he had to do so much effort to
>>lose that first game and didn't manage to lose it despite that.
>
>Nonsense.
>If you want to lose a game against computer one poor move is enough.
>You only need to resign in one move or to do some tactical blunder.
>
>You also do not play quiet opening against computers if you want to lose.
>
>Of course kasparov never claimed that he tried to lose by playing poor moves
>without success but nothing will stop you to post lies.
>
>Unfortunately Kasparov cannot go to court against Vincent Diepeveen to get some
>money because Vincent is probably going to deny that he wrote the posts that you
>posted(The only thing that I can say for Vincent is that maybe he is not you).
>
>Uri

You lack a rating point or 2500 socially to understand that there is a
difference between moves that directly lose the game and subtle moves that lose
the game which are subtle mistakes.

there is a whole scala of move quality between the two.






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