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Subject: Re: SEE & accuracy

Author: Stuart Cracraft

Date: 20:53:00 08/21/04

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On August 21, 2004 at 23:12:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 21, 2004 at 19:24:01, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>
>>On August 21, 2004 at 17:52:58, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On August 21, 2004 at 17:37:15, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 21, 2004 at 17:23:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 21, 2004 at 13:20:11, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>SEE increases my nominal iteration depth by 0.42 pawns
>>>>>>given the same amount of time as a non-SEE search, all else
>>>>>>
>>>>>>SEE decreases my max quiescence depth reached (with a check handoff
>>>>>>to main search) by a little under 8 ply for the same problem set.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>These are the 300 positions from Win-at-Chess run at 1 second per
>>>>>>problem on an old, slow, notebook. I do not have comparative data
>>>>>>due to the subjectivity involved of chess games and the "feel of SEE".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Legend:
>>>>>>Ave Iterative Depth/Average Max Search depth
>>>>>>% solved
>>>>>>Total solved / Total in test
>>>>>>Total time taken (300 seconds allowed)
>>>>>>Total Nodes searched
>>>>>>Average positions searched per problem /
>>>>>>Average time (rounded) per problem /
>>>>>>Average nodes per second per problem
>>>>>>0/0/Check Extensions from Quiescence back to Main Search/0/0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Without SEE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>**** 6.68/27.18 68% 204/300 269.05 54264704 180882/1/201692 0/0/3361112/0/0/0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>With SEE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>**** 7.10/19.01 64% 193/300 267.44 46135172 153784/1/172505 0/0/1154026/0/0/0
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Total problem solution rate drops 5.4% and nodes searched drops 14.98%
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(The SEE being used above was tried as (1) see < 0 then don't search
>>>>>>a capture move in quiescence and (2) see < delta where delta is calculated
>>>>>>with its margin off alpha as the maximum positional score so far in the
>>>>>>search for the side on move. The above results are the combination of both and
>>>>>>if only using the #2, assuming for example my SEE is not a great SEE,
>>>>>>the result is only slightly changed.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My question is, why should SEE reduce the tactical result so drastically
>>>>>>and is it safe to do so given the depth and nodes results are favorable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks ahead,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>SEE should _help_ in tactics, not hurt.  If it is hurting, there is something
>>>>>wrong somewhere...
>>>>
>>>>That's puzzling. I've tested it pretty thoroughly, manually, in a variety
>>>>of positions and think it is working right. It knows nothing of any secondary
>>>>effects, just the exchanging pieces. No x-rays, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Now I'm really nervous.
>>>
>>>
>>>No x-rays is a serious shortcoming.  IE two rooks attacking the same square in
>>>battery.  If you don't include the second rook I could see how SEE could cause
>>>problems.  I handle X-rays pretty easily and always did even back in CB days...
>>
>>Yes -- X-rays have to be added. Finding them isn't a problem. It's what to
>>do with them after. I'll check around.
>
>
>That part is simple.  Produce a list of pieces directly attacking the target.
>Each time you make a capture you _always_ use the smallest piece.  And once you
>use it, if it is not a knight or king, you look "behind" the piece you just used
>to see if there is a piece that moves in the same direction.  If so, add _that_
>piece to the list of attackers, and the next cycle you still use the smallest
>piece from that list...
>
>
>Repeat until one side runs out of capturng pieces...
>
Thanks -- that will save a lot of time. I'll try to get this done in the
next few days if possible.

>Then minimax the result...



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