Author: Howard Exner
Date: 02:28:17 01/10/99
Go up one level in this thread
On January 09, 1999 at 11:53:32, Michael J Fitch wrote: >On January 08, 1999 at 18:47:29, Matthew Herman wrote: > >>On January 08, 1999 at 10:24:45, Michael J Fitch wrote: >> >>>On January 08, 1999 at 08:06:03, Matthew Herman wrote: >>> >>>>On January 08, 1999 at 04:22:09, Howard Exner wrote: >>>> >>>>>b5k1/7p/4p1pP/4P1P1/8/8/8/N5K1 w >>>>> >>>>>Here is a position based on a game between Cm6000 and Fritz 5.32. >>>>>( the recent game with the move d3 thread). >>>>>I created this position to see if Chess programs have >>>>>an accurate assessment of the relative values that the Bishop and >>>>>Knight have. Material is equal yet all endgame authors I've read usually >>>>>comment on positions like this in the following manner - "White has >>>>>a huge advantage as all the pawns are on the same side of the board. >>>>>Furthermore whites pawns cannot be attacked and once the powerfull >>>>>white Knight reaches f6 the game will be over." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>How will programs eventually come to deal with assessing this position >>>>>correctly? Will this be a kind of position that programs will never >>>>>quite understand? Do any programs penalize the bishop here or >>>>>conversely, give the Knight extra value in this position? >>>> >>>>By the way .. in this position it isn't so easy to get the knight to f6 .. (the >>>>Bishop goes to f5 and the k to e7 and it is really hard to penetrate from there. >>>>One problem with programs dealing with this, is that the bishop has a *wide* >>>>open diagonal .. so therefore it might think it to be active instead of bad. >>> >>>Mr Herman lets assume that the pawn structure is the same black Ke7 and >>>Bf5.Whites Kc5 and Ne3 .White to move win by Nxf5 if exf5 kxd5 and the pass >>>pawn will queen and if gxf5 g6 [a(if hxg6 h7) [b(if kf8 gxh7 queen) >>>I played over this game several times and the Bishop can't stop the Night from >>>getting to f6.On move 46 instead of Bc4 black had to play Bxe2 put his king on >>>d7 and move his rook back and forth on the seventh and eighth ranks and the game >>>is a draw.I hope one of these years(soon) that chess programs will give the >>>correct positional value,evaluation and assessment of these kinds of positions >> >>Which passer will queen? If the king is on e7 no e pawn will queen and black >>wins the ending because of the f-pawn.. yes the knight will probably get there, >>but it isn't as easy as first looks.. I mean after Nxf5 exf5 the f-pawn is >>protected and passeed, and the ending is an easy win.. (for black) but it sohuld >>be a win for white.. as the Kn cannot be permanently kept out of f6 I don't >>think > > >mr herman your position is wrong--white has pawns on e5,f4,g5,h6--black has >pawns on d5,e6,g6,h7 I think there is some confusion on the position. The position I entered was not from the actual game of CM600 vs Fritz but loosely based on it. Here it is ... b5k1/7p/4p1pP/4P1P1/8/8/8/N5K1 w This is the EPD position I posted . The analysis you are giving is from the actual game and looks correct. Matthew's is from the above EPD. Note that the EPD has pawns on h7,e6 and g6 for black while whites are on h6,e5 and g5. His original contention was that white's Knight will not be able to reach the f6 square but it does via d7. >if Nxf5 blacks f pawn is not a pass pawn.go to move 58 of >the game,with black to move how will the bishop stop the night from getting to >f6.Now with the correct pawn stucture lets assume the bishop is on f5 the king >is on e7 whites night is on e3 and king is on c5 with white to move,after Nxf5 >if exf5 kxd5 whites e pawn is passed.black cannot stop white from penetrating >his position.(black to move)1..Kd7 2 Kc5!(not e6+ that would draw)if(2..Kc7 3 e6 >3..Kd8 4 Kd6 whites e-pawn queens)[instead of move 3..Kd8 what about3..Kc8 4 Kc6 >4..Kd8 5 Kd6 5..Ke8 6 e7 6..Kf7 7 Kd7 7..Kg8 8 E8=Q ++]2..Ke6 3 Kc6 3..Ke7 >4 Kd7 4..Ke8 5 Kd6 5..Kd8 6 e6 6..Ke8 7 e7 7..Kf7 8 Kd7 8..Kg8 9.e8=Q ++ >[instead of move 4..Ke8 what about 4..Ke6 5 Kd8 if(Kf7--Kd7 will mate)5..Kd5 6 >Ke7 6..Ke4 7 Kf6 7..Kxf4 8 e6 8..Kg3 9 e7 9..f4 10 e8=Q 10..f3 11 Kg7 and the >rest is silly.Now lets go back to Nxf5 gxf5---g6 if hxg7 the h-pawn will Queen >if Kf8 then gxh7 and the pawn will Queen.
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