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Subject: Re: The Null Move Killer

Author: Stuart Cracraft

Date: 12:29:05 10/01/04

Go up one level in this thread


On October 01, 2004 at 14:43:10, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On October 01, 2004 at 12:28:00, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>
>>On September 30, 2004 at 20:02:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On September 30, 2004 at 18:23:20, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 30, 2004 at 18:07:46, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 30, 2004 at 15:50:43, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 30, 2004 at 09:38:04, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On September 30, 2004 at 00:52:04, Will Singleton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On September 29, 2004 at 23:52:15, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>[D] 4r1k1/p1qr1p2/2pb1Bp1/1p5p/3P1n1R/1B3P2/PP3PK1/2Q4R w - - bm Qxf4;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In this position I had everything turned on and got the solution
>>>>>>>>>in a little more than 1 1/2 minutes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1/11  g2f1  0.01 -953      945 g2f1 f4d5
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5
>>>>>>>>> 2/12  g2f1  0.01 -953     1644
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 c1g5
>>>>>>>>> 3/12  g2f1  0.02 -953     5064
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 c1g5 d5f6
>>>>>>>>> 4/20  g2f1  0.09 -953    20655
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 b3d5 c6d5 c1c7 d6c7 f1g1
>>>>>>>>> 5/22  g2f1  0.65 -953   168943
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 b5b4 b3a4 f4d5 f6g5 d5e7
>>>>>>>>> 6/26  g2f1  2.59 -953   620310
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 b5b4 mtmt
>>>>>>>>> 7/32> g2f1 60.58 -552 14192153 g2f1 e8c8 c1b1 f4d5 b1e4 d6b4 f6e5 c7b6
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 e8c8 c1b1 f4d5 b1e4 d6b4
>>>>>>>>> 7/34  c1f4 99.42 5113 24537823 c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1 d6e7 f6e7
>>>>>>>>>                                c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I turned off null move (R=2) and got the solution in about 11 seconds:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Alpha=-1332 Beta=-531 Maxdepth=9999999 MaxTime=99999999
>>>>>>>>> 1/11 g2f1  0.01 -953      908 g2f1 f4d5
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5
>>>>>>>>> 2/12 g2f1  0.01 -953     1565
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 c1g5
>>>>>>>>> 3/14 g2f1  0.07 -953    20084
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 c1g5 d5f6
>>>>>>>>> 4/22 g2f1  0.60 -953   131543
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 f4d5 b3d5 c6d5 c1c7 d6c7 f1g1
>>>>>>>>> 5/26>g2f1  6.80 -552  1607444
>>>>>>>>>                                g2f1 b5b4 b3a4 f4d5 f6g5 d5e7
>>>>>>>>> 5/36 c1f4 10.70 2260  2466497 c1f4 d6f4 h4h5 g6h5 h1h5 f4h6 h5h6 c7g3 g2g3 d7d6
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                                c1f4 d6f4 h4h5 g6h5 h1h5 f4h6 h5h6 c7g3 g2g3 d7d
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>So now my question is, would it make sense to consider an idea of
>>>>>>>>>disabling null move under additional circumstances if those
>>>>>>>>>circumstances can be identified.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   endgame
>>>>>>>>>   side to move in check
>>>>>>>>>   inside principal variation
>>>>>>>>>   last move a null move
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>These are the ones I disable for -- I don't disable null move for
>>>>>>>>>any material-related or alpha/beta related measures but perhaps
>>>>>>>>>I should. Are any in common use?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Stuart
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If the previous move was a piece moving near the enemy king, I don't null move.
>>>>>>>>Also, don't null near the leafs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That is a bad idea.  That is where most of the _gain_ from null-move happens.  I
>>>>>>>do it everywhere without this WAC141 problem stuff bothering anything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do you mean for both near the leafs and enemy king or only one or the other?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Near the leaves...
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually near the frontier as frontier nodes are those along the outer bound of
>>>>>the basic search.  Leaves (in my program) never have null moves anywhere since
>>>>>they are in the q-search...
>>>>
>>>>Okay now I'm really confused.
>>>>
>>>>Frontier = depth = 0
>>>>Pre-frontier = depth = 1
>>>>Pre-Pre-frontier = depth = 2
>>>>Leaf = terminal node after quiescence search (no more caps, etc.) possible
>>>
>>>Yes...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Is that how you're classifying it? So no null move at depth = 1 is bad.
>>>
>>>
>>>yes again...
>>>
>>
>>Urk! That's the one thing that helps me solve WAC 141 in < 5 seconds
>>because it practically turns off null move -- so toss that idea.
>
>Just remember, you can avoid all automobile mechanical problems by walking.  :)
>
>Not very effective, but it will work...

I actually knew a guy at work back in the 1980's who did just that.
Jacob Sarvela at SRI. He owned no cars. Walking and bicyling only.
He kept a pedometer on his belt and ensured his apartment was not
far from work.



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