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Subject: Re: WB2 protocol: Announcement/Suggestion

Author: Anthony Cozzie

Date: 11:01:30 11/07/04

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On November 07, 2004 at 09:55:57, milix wrote:

>On November 07, 2004 at 03:14:29, Russell Reagan wrote:
>
>>On November 06, 2004 at 18:58:04, Pallav Nawani wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>Personally, I don't want to support any 'special features' in GUIs. This will
>>>lead to WB protocol becoming confusing, as now every GUI has its own features
>>>not available in the other. ChessBase8 may have a feature, chessbase9 may have
>>>another, new, feature. So now the GUi string
>>>gui chessbase
>>>Dosen't cut it anymore. YOu need
>>>gui chessbase8
>>>gui chessbase9
>>>etc.
>>>
>>>In other words, authors whose programs use WB2 protocol will have the task of
>>>maintaining a small DB of GUI's within their programs. Even worse, different
>>>GUIs will decide to use different names/strings for a same feature. This will
>>>become messy. If some GUI has a useful new feature, it is probably better to add
>>>it to the Winboard protocol proper, rather than leave it at the mercy of GUIs.
>>>
>>>Note that I don't have any objection to the gui command, I just feel that using
>>>it as a basis to have special code for separate GUIs is not something I want to
>>>do.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Pallav
>>
>>I want to see some improvements to the Winboard protocol, but I have to agree
>>with you and I don't think this proposed change will result in an improvement of
>>the situation. The only significant measuring stick for the Winboard protocol is
>>the UCI protocol, which is more attractive IMO (as an engine programmer and
>>especially as an engine user). Compared to UCI, Winboard is already a bit
>>clunky. I think the existence of the 'feature' command is enough.
>>
>>Unless there are improvements to the Winboard-2 protocol, I think the Winboard
>>protocol is on the way out and UCI will continue to grow in popularity. I fear
>>that adding more complexity to support every GUI extension under the sun would
>>only accelerate Winboard's departure. Anyone writing a new engine will look at
>>the two protocols and see a nice, simple, user friendly protocol in UCI with a
>>relatively small downside, and something complicated in Winboard (relative to
>>UCI). A new computer chess programmer won't care too much about the common
>>drawbacks of UCI.
>>
>>I don't like that my engine can't resign, accept draws, offer draws,
>>kibitz/whisper to an ICS, and that I have to "trick" the protocol to ponder the
>>way I want to using UCI, but the pros outweigh the cons IMO, and there are
>>tolerable workarounds.
>>
>>I'd like something in the middle, ideally. The Winboard protocol has contributed
>>very significantly to the popularity of computer chess. UCI improved upon the
>>Winboard protocol in some areas. I'm waiting for something that improves on them
>>both. Creating my own protocol and GUI is something I've been working on for a
>>long time (on paper), but it is definitely a non-trivial task. I've also
>>considered the idea of writing an adapter that understands both protocols
>>simultaneously, or maybe a UCI-to-WB adapter that allows some Winboard commands
>>(ex. for kibitzing analysis in a CCT event, etc.).
>
>Hi Russel
>Personaly, I believe the above was true for WB 1 but it is not for WB 2. The
>feature command, the setboard command and others added the needed flexibility to
>the x-board protocol. Besides the protocol it is not that complex. On the other
>hand, the UCI 1 protocol has the serious drawback of not knowing when a new game
>is started. It is clear to me that WB suits nice for engines that play chess
>games and UCI is for engines that are used for analyzing positions. When
>analyzing you not need to know if this position is a new game or not. it dosn't
>matter. You also need to see many alternative lines, thus and the multivariation
>support in UCI 2.
>
>My bests,
>Anastasios Milikas

The nice thing about UCI is that the engine doesn't have to keep track of
whether it is pondering, searching, etc.  It also has (IMO) a simpler syntax.

The problem with UCI is that the engine therefore can't do anything special,
like ponder on more than one move.

anthony



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