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Subject: Re: Bionic Vs Crafty Debate: some data required

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 13:51:55 01/25/99

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On January 25, 1999 at 16:22:11, James Robertson wrote:

>On January 25, 1999 at 10:54:04, Albrecht Heeffer wrote:
>
>>On January 25, 1999 at 08:24:14, Fernando Villegas wrote:
>>
>>>Hi:
>>>I have been amazed a little bit by the fact that in the long thread about bionic
>>>as a clone or not  nobody seems to have given data about how much Bionic is
>>>really something new or not, to begin with. The only thing that has been said
>>>about his presumed novelty is Dgeordge Vidanovic's statement that it is new;
>>>only thing that has been said about his presumed clone quality is the afirmation
>>>by Bob that a program that has changed only 1% of the code cannot be considered
>>>something new. Well, which are the data to support one or the other statement?
>>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>It seems like a good time to introduce myself. I'm part of the Bionic team.
>>I provided the hardware, worked through the test sets, added the end-game
>>databases and did some optimisations. I was present at the Open Dutch during
>>the first weekend.
>>
>>Let me first clarify some things:
>>
>>1) You want data? There is a complete website explaining a lot of details
>>about Bionic. Please consult http://www.impakt.be/bionic/ There is
>>also explained what was added and changes to the Crafty version
>>we started from.
>>
>>2) All this was available before the start of the Open Dutch championship.
>>We did not hide anything. Bionic Impakt is for a large part based on
>>Crafty code, originally 9.26 and later based on 15.20. We never looked at
>>Crafty 16.x as some people suggested. If you want to compare, you'd
>>better use version 15.20
>>
>>3) Hans Secelle is a good chess player. He added a lot of knowledge in
>>the prescan routines. The effect is most dramatic on the positional
>>problems of the Louget II test. Bionic scores 11 of the 14 problems,
>>Crafty 15.20 only six! The results on all tests we have perfomed are
>>on the website, including comparisions with Crafty 15.20
>>
>>4) Bionic Impakt played on the same hardware using the same binary
>>during the first weekend and the second weekend. The fact that Bionic
>>scored better during the first weekend of the Open Dutch Championship
>>is a conincidence. However is seems that a Crafty-derived Bionic that plays
>>well is less acceptable by some than a Crafty-derived Bionic that score
>>badly. Also, discussion starts again after Bionic wins from Crafty
>>at the Winboard tournament.
>>
>>5) The claim by Robert Hyatt that Bionic plays the same moves than
>>Crafty 16.1 is simply not true:
>>
>>>Vincent Diepeveen sent me the games from the first weekend of play.  I picked
>>>3 as that was all the time I had.  I had crafty search each (on my quad P6/200
>>>which I figured was slower than the machine they used by a significant amount.)
>>>I had crafty search for 10 minutes per move, and if it chose the same move
>>>anywhere between 3 and 8 minutes as they did, I called this a match.  I got
>>>all but one move in those three games.  Not a 'perfect' matching scheme, but
>>>with the parallel search, it is non-trivial even on identical hardware.
>>
>>Several people tried this also, including Marcel Van Kervinck and
>>Johan Havegheer. Marcel played through 513 moves and found that only
>>406 matched with Crafty 16.1. This test can be verified by anyone who feels
>
>You shoot down this argument yourself in your previous paragraphs by saying "If
>you want to compare, you'd better use version 15.20". These results now seem
>meaningless.
>
>James
>
>>like doing so. We decided to post the complete loggings of the Open Dutch.
>>You can download them from: http://www.impakt.be/bionic/odc98.htm
>>You can inspect all setting, timings, moves, evaluations and so on.
>>If you really want to do this in a scientific way:
>>- do not use book moves
>>- categorise chess-evading moves, 'obvious' moves, 'only' moves
>>- do the same test also with some other program
>>
>>Good luck,
>>
>>Albrecht Heeffer


Just so everyone knows, crafty v16.0 == crafty v15.20 + Eugene's new endgame
database code (with a nasty enpassant bug in the probe code).  16.1 fixed the
probe bug, but also included some eval changes.



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