Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 11:53:21 05/18/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 18, 2005 at 14:40:30, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 18, 2005 at 11:56:55, Jeremiah Penery wrote: > >>On May 18, 2005 at 07:23:31, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On May 18, 2005 at 03:24:42, Jeremiah Penery wrote: >>> >>>>On May 17, 2005 at 22:31:25, Eelco de Groot wrote: >>>> >>>>>Pro Deo 1.1 Q5T about Nolot #3, keymove is supposed to be Nxg5, most programs >>>>>eventually play Bxg5. So does the Q5T, but only with +0.36 >>>>>[D]r2qk2r/ppp1b1pp/2n1p3/3pP1n1/3P2b1/2PB1NN1/PP4PP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - bm Nxg5; id >>>>>"Position 3"; >>>>> >>>>... >>>>> 00:00:21 11.00 0.54 1.Qc2 Bxf3 2.gxf3 Nxf3 3.Kd1 Qd7 4.Nh5 O-O-O >>>>> 5.Nxg7 Rdg8 6.Nxe6 Ncxe5 >>>>> 00:01:02 12.00 0.46 1.Qc2 Bxf3 2.gxf3 Nxf3 3.Kd1 Qd7 4.Rf1 Nfxd4 >>>>> 5.cxd4 Nxd4 6.Qc3 c5 7.Ne2 Nxe2 8.Kxe2 O-O-O >>>>> 9.Rf7 >>>>> 00:01:12 12.01 0.58 1.Bxg5 Bxg5 2.O-O Qe7 3.h3 >>>>> 00:04:15 13.00 0.36 1.Bxg5 Bxg5 2.h3 Bh4 3.hxg4 Bxg3 4.Kf1 Qd7 >>>>> 5.Rh3 >>>>> >>>>>Vulcan Q1 does not find either Bxg5 or Nxg5 with a high score, with a slightly >>>>>different positional evauation for mobility etc., it thinks h3 is best. This >>>>>Nolot #3 position is still not "solved" >>>>>(See also http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/nolot/nolot.htm). >>>>> >>>>... >>>>> 00:00:40 11.10 0.60 1.Rf1 g6 2.Bxg5 Bxg5 3.Qc2 Qe7 4.Nxg5 Qxg5 >>>>> 5.Qd2 Qxd2 >>>>> 00:01:09 12.00 0.32 1.Rf1 Nxf3 2.gxf3 Bh3 3.Rg1 Bh4 4.Kd2 a5 5.Kc2 >>>>> Ne7 6.Nh5 >>>>> 00:01:18 12.01 0.57 1.h3 Bxf3 2.gxf3 g6 3.f4 Nf7 4.Rg1 Rf8 5.Qb3 >>>>> Na5 >>>>> 00:02:12 13.00 0.70 1.h3 Bxf3 2.gxf3 g6 3.f4 Nf7 4.Rg1 Bh4 5.b3 >>>>> Nh6 6.Ba3 Be7 7.Bxe7 >>>>> 00:04:28 14.00 0.73 1.h3 Bxf3 2.gxf3 g6 3.f4 Nf7 4.Rg1 Rf8 5.f5 >>>>> 00:12:18 15.00 0.64 1.h3 Bxf3 2.gxf3 >>>> >>>>I've studied the Nolot positions a lot, and I'm quite sure that position #3 is >>>>correct with Nxg5. White has a crushing attack, and most of black's pieces are >>>>paralyzed. >>>> >>>>This is output from a modified Crafty 19.19, with some form of singular >>>>extensions among other things: >>>> >>>>White(1): analyze >>>>Analyze Mode: type "exit" to terminate. >>>> clearing hash tables >>>> time surplus 0.00 time limit 22.50 (3:30) >>>> depth time score variation (1) >>>> ... >>>> 11 15.76 0.14 1. Be3 O-O 2. Bxg5 Bxg5 3. Qc2 h6 4. >>>> Bh7+ Kh8 5. Nxg5 Qxg5 6. Rf1 Rxf1+ >>>> 7. Nxf1 >>>> 11 20.06 0.20 1. Bxg5 Bxg5(S) 2. Rf1(H) Qe7(H) 3. >>>> Qa4(H) Bf4(H) 4. Ne2(H) Be3(H) 5. h3(H) >>>> Bh5(H) 6. Qd1(H) <HT> >>>> 11-> 23.59 0.20 1. Bxg5 Bxg5(S) 2. Rf1 Qe7 3. Qa4 Bf4 >>>> 4. Ne2 Be3 5. h3 Bh5 6. Qd1 <HT> >>>> 12 31.70 0.03 1. Bxg5 Bxg5(S) 2. Rf1 Qe7 3. Qa4 O-O-O >>>> 4. Bb5 Nb8 5. Nxg5 Qxg5 6. Qxa7 Rhf8 >>>> 12 1:03 0.08 1. Be3 g6 2. Bb5 Ne4 3. Qa4 Qd7 4. >>>> Nxe4 dxe4 5. Ng5 O-O-O 6. O-O Bf5 7. >>>> Bxc6 Qxc6 8. Qxa7 >>>> 12 1:23 0.41 1. Nxg5 Bxd1(S) 2. Nxe6(H) Qb8(H) 3. >>>> Nxg7+(H) Kf7(H) 4. Bh6(H) Bf8(H) 5. >>>> Rf1+(H) Kg8(H) 6. N3f5(H) Bg4(H) 7. >>>> e6(H) <HT> >>>> 12-> 1:31 0.41 1. Nxg5 Bxd1(S) 2. Nxe6 Qb8 3. Nxg7+ >>>> Kf7(S) 4. Bh6 Bf8 5. Rf1+ Kg8 6. N3f5 >>>> Bg4 7. e6 <HT> >>>> 13 2:05 0.70 1. Nxg5 Bxd1(S) 2. Nxe6 Qc8(S) 3. Nxg7+ >>>> Kf7(S) 4. O-O+(H) Kxg7(H) 5. Nf5+(H) >>>> Qxf5(H) 6. Bxf5(H) Bh5(H) 7. b4(H) >>>> Bg6(H) 8. Bg4(H) <HT> >>>> 13-> 2:32 0.70 1. Nxg5 Bxd1(S) 2. Nxe6 Qc8(S) 3. Nxg7+ >>>> Kf7(S) 4. O-O+ Kxg7(S) 5. Nf5+ Qxf5 >>>> 6. Bxf5 Bh5 7. b4 Bg6 8. Bg4 <HT> >>>> >>>>The score continues to rise at higher iterations. >>>> >>>> 17-> 27:17 1.24 1. Nxg5 Bxd1 2. Nxe6 Qb8(S) 3. Nxg7+ >>>> Kf7 4. N7f5 Ba4 5. O-O Ke8 6. b3(S) >>>> Bxb3 7. axb3 <HT> >>> >>> >>>I tried Movei in the position after 1.Nxg5 and I get only a draw score at depth >>>17 but the pv seems to be good for white. >>> >>>I could prove +1.7 for white with yaceafter Bxd1 Nxe6 Qb8 Nxg7+ Kf8 Bh6 Bg4 >>>0-0+ Kg8 Rf4 >>> >>>When I go back and let yace to learn it seems that Bg4 is not good and Ba4 is >>>better but yace still report a significant advantage for white(1.39 pawns for >>>white for Ba4) >>> >>>When I continue to go back Yace see only a draw for Crafty's move Kf7 but more >>>invistigation discovers >>>4.Bh6 Bf8 5.0-0+ Kg8 6.Rxf8+ Qxf8 7.Rxd1 with +2.08 for white so I go backward >>>Yace prefers 4...Ba4 but again it is a big advantage for white when going >>>backward it suggests 4...b5 with 1.48 for white but again it does not seem to be >>>a good move so it seems that both Kf8 and Kf7 are bad and the black king needs >>>to go to the d file. >> >>That is probably true, but then black has to waste some moves freeing the queen >>and rook stuck over in that corner. I'm not sure if the lines I'm seeing are >>any good here: >> >> 10-> 4.10 0.71 4. Kxd1 Rg8 5. Ne6+ Kd7 6. Bf5 Bh4 >> 7. Nc5+ Ke8 8. Bxh7 Rg7 9. Bf5 Kd8 >> 11 19.21 0.85 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Re1 Qa7 6. Ne6+ Kc8 7. >> Nf5 Re8 8. Ng5 Rg8 9. h4(H) <HT> >> 11-> 21.68 0.85 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Re1 Qa7 6. Ne6+ Kc8 7. >> Nf5 Re8 8. Ng5 Rg8 9. h4 <HT> >> 12 40.11 0.82 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 b6 6. N3f5 Rg8 7. >> Nxe7 Nxe7 8. Bxh7 Rh8 9. Ne6+ Kc8 >> 12-> 53.52 0.82 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 b6 6. N3f5 Rg8 7. >> Nxe7 Nxe7 8. Bxh7 Rh8 9. Ne6+ Kc8 >> 13 1:57 0.95 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 Qa7 6. Rf7 Qb6 7. >> N3f5 Nxe5 8. dxe5 Qg1+ 9. Kc2 Qxg2+ >> 10. Bd2 Bc5 >> 13-> 2:22 0.95 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 Qa7 6. Rf7 Qb6 7. >> N3f5 Nxe5 8. dxe5 Qg1+ 9. Kc2 Qxg2+ >> 10. Bd2 Bc5 >> 14 8:44 1.07 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 Qa7(S) 6. Rf7 Qb6 >> 7. N3f5 h6 8. h4(H) Rc8(H) 9. Ne6+(H) >> Ke8(H) <HT> >> 14-> 9:44 1.07 4. Kxd1 a6 5. Rf1 Qa7(S) 6. Rf7 Qb6 >> 7. N3f5 h6 8. h4 Rc8 9. Ne6+ Ke8 <HT> > > >Hsu found that Kd8 is the best and the main question is that line. Hsu is a player what is it, 1100 rated or so? Nxg5 is a win for white most definitely, no matter what black is moving :) > >> >>>3...Kd8 is evaluated by yace as 0.54/12 for white >>>When I go backward yace suggest Qc8 and it seems that I need to repeat all the >>>process for Qc8 to get positive score for white with yace. >> >>Qc8 is no good, because it is just wasting a tempo. White plays Bf5 soon and >>forces the queen to b8 anyway. >> >>13-> 2:54 1.26 3. Bf5 Qb8(S) 4. Nxg7+ Kf7(S) 5. Bh6 >> Bf8(S) 6. e6+ Kf6 7. h4 Ke7 8. Rxd1 >> Kd8 9. O-O Be7 10. h5 > >I agree Qc8 is no good but for a different reason. >Shredder suggested 3.Nxg7+ and not 3.Bf5 after Qc8 and after some learning from >the following tree >Yace shows Ng5 with the Kd8 line > > >[Event "Blitz:3'"] >[Site "?"] >[Date "????.??.??"] >[Round "?"] >[White "New game"] >[Black "?"] >[Result "*"] >[SetUp "1"] >[FEN "r2qk2r/ppp1b1pp/2n1p3/3pP1n1/3P2b1/2PB1NN1/PP4PP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - 0 1"] >[PlyCount "11"] >[TimeControl "180"] > >1. Nxg5 Bxd1 2. Nxe6 Qb8 (2... Qc8 3. Nxg7+ Kf8 (3... Kf7 4. Bh6) 4. Bh6 Bg4 5. >O-O+ Kg8 6. N3f5) 3. Nxg7+ Kf8 (3... Kf7 4. Bh6 Bf8 (4... Ba4 5. O-O+ Kg8 6. >N3f5) 5. O-O+ Kg8 6. Rxf8+ Qxf8 7. Rxd1) (3... Kd8 4. Kxd1) (3... Kd7 4. Bf5+ >Kd8) 4. Bh6 Bg4 (4... Ba4 5. O-O+ Kg8 6. N3f5) 5. O-O+ Kg8 6. Rf4 * > > >New game, Blitz:3' >r2qk2r/ppp1b1pp/2n1p3/3pP1n1/3P2b1/2PB1NN1/PP4PP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - 0 1 > >Analysis by Yace 0.99.87: > >1.Bxg5 Bxg5 > = (-0.09) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 1 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 2 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 2 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 16kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 6/19 00:00:00 106kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 106kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 7/23 00:00:01 263kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 263kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 644kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 9/23 00:00:01 644kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 9/23 00:00:02 1780kN >1.Nxg5 Bxd1 2.Nxe6 Qb8 3.Nxg7+ Kd8 4.Kxd1 Na5 5.Rf1 > ± (0.78) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 1780kN > >(, 18.05.2005)
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