Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 13:17:50 05/30/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 30, 2005 at 05:09:18, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >On May 29, 2005 at 23:26:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On May 29, 2005 at 11:17:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >> >>>On May 29, 2005 at 08:45:21, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On May 29, 2005 at 06:57:36, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:41:24, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 11:18:05, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 10:46:48, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 18:02:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 17:54:57, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hello Thomas >>>>>>>>>>I would like to see playing into playchess engines room, to Dr. Robert Hyatt >>>>>>>>>>engines. >>>>>>>>>>For me is a problem to play into ICC because I have not premoves into ICC, and >>>>>>>>>>as a guest if there are disconnection immediately I will be lost. >>>>>>>>>>I would like to play a challenger (just for fun and for testing engines to be >>>>>>>>>>better engines and of course me too) into playchess against Crafty from Dr >>>>>>>>>>Robert Hyatt and against Quark, if could be possible into main room better for >>>>>>>>>>everyone. >>>>>>>>>>Unique way for me to discover new ways will be playing in long time controls. >>>>>>>>>>This has been a dream for me Thomas. >>>>>>>>>>Best regard, >>>>>>>>>>Pablo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If I understand correctly >>>>>>>>>I understand that engines lose on time automatically at move 257 in playchess >>>>>>>>>and that this problem is not engine problem but interface problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think that if this problem is not fixed then engines suffer from unfair >>>>>>>>>conditions in playchess. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It seems that maybe you don't understand the technique. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A human with pre-move (and just enough lag) will always win a closed position on >>>>>>>>time if the game is long enough - regardless of time control (as long as there >>>>>>>>is no increment), and regardless of anything that happens on move 257. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bob Hyatt says crafty will never lose on time this way. So far, Pablo has not >>>>>>>been able to win against crafty on ICC with this technique. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Vas >>>>>> >>>>>>Let me show you how to do it :) >>>>>> >>>>>>Vas >>>>> >>>>>Ok - crafty is damn hard to provoke into closing the position and I didn't have >>>>>the patience for a zillion games. >>>>> >>>>>Still - the question is, how many moves will crafty play in a 3-minute game >>>>>before running out of time. There is of course some limit, even if it's 1000. >>>> >>>> >>>>If it is 1000 then the question is if it is possible to get a game of 1000 game >>>>against the program. >>>> >>>> A >>>>>pre-mover can play an infinite amount. >>>>> >>>>>Vas >>>> >>>>No >>>> >>>>After 50 moves with no capture and conversion the program claims a draw and >>>>there is some practical limit for the number of moves in the game. >>>> >>>>I doubt if humans can play 1000 moves against a program without getting some >>>>winning position in the process and without draw by the 50 move rule. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>That doesn't contradict anything I said. The point is that you can't say that >>>Crafty will never lose on time. You can only say that in a 3 0 game, Crafty can >>>play X moves, and that X is usually going to be enough. >> >> >> >>In theory, crafty can play 180,000 moves in a 3 0 game. In reality it won't, >>because it will use more time up front. But in that last second of time, it can >>play 1000 moves. Pre-move is going to get you absolutely killed there, for >>reasons I have already stated. >> >>We can set up a guest account test on ICC for you to try if you want. I already >>know the result. _nobody_ tries that type of play against Crafty any longer. >>Several used to. > >Ok, I'd like to try it. (Probably you're right but this way I can say that I >tested it.) > >Can I start from the following position: > >[D] r1bqk1br/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/R7/3B1B2/8/P1P1P1P1/3K3R w kq - > >At 3 0? > >I can try to log on either tonight or tomorrow night. > >BTW - I tried several games over the weekend and could never get Crafty to lock >the position completely. > >Vas > The problem with trying to start there is that Crafty would _never_ allow that to happen in a real game. Starting in a nearly drawn position is not going to prove much. The problem is in reaching such a position, while using pre-move, without making a tactical error when it plays something unexpected and your pre-move turns into an outright blunder... >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>A premover can be punished by some stupid sacrifice. >>>>I do not think that it is very hard to make a program that detect premovers and >>>>punish them by that way. >>>> >>>>Of course that way have risks but if the program is not deterministic about the >>>>time of making the stupid sacrifice the opponent may lose most of the games >>>>because he will be unable to guess when the program make the stupid sacrifice >>>>and when to stop premoving. >>>> >>> >>>Yes, of course. This sort of pre-move-based guessing is normal stuff in >>>human-human bullet games. If you're good at it, it's easily worth 100 rating >>>points. >>> >>>Vas >>> >>>>Uri
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