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Subject: Re: My thought on Hydra vs Adams Game 1. Yes c4! was a killer shot.

Author: Vasik Rajlich

Date: 03:52:39 06/23/05

Go up one level in this thread


On June 23, 2005 at 04:03:49, Drexel,Michael wrote:

>On June 22, 2005 at 21:49:25, Robin Smith wrote:
>
>>On June 22, 2005 at 16:17:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea
>>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better
>>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull
>>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end
>>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK
>>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Robin
>>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open.  One does _not_, as
>>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game.
>>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this.  Of course, he made a couple of tactical
>>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in
>>>>>>>the wrong kind of position...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no
>>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error
>>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6
>>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Define "equal".  Here I am considering the important detail that white is a
>>>>>computer, black is a human.  In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23.
>>>>
>>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did.
>>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every
>>>>game where he has the black pieces.
>>>>
>>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal.
>>>>
>>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is
>>>>a computer" logic.
>>>>
>>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw.
>>>>
>>>>>But in an open position.
>>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position.
>>>>
>>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance".
>>>>
>>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing
>>>>>another human.  And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move
>>>>>finds white better IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight
>>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way.
>>>>
>>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely
>>>>>>together.
>>>>>
>>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together.  The comps were at about +1 here
>>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until
>>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine.
>>>>
>>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly
>>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle.  But if there were not so many open
>>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics
>>>>>all over the board.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black
>>>>>>looks OK to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>But white looks better to me there.  Maybe not "winning better" but
>>>>>"significantly better".
>>>>
>>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong
>>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake.
>>>>
>>>>-Robin
>>>
>>>
>>>Again, let me remind you that I qualified my response to "knowing this is a
>>>computer vs human, black is exposing himself to difficulty."
>>
>>That is _not_ what you said. If that _had_ been what you said I would have
>>agreed. But your original statements were stronger. Here are some actual quotes:
>>
>>Hyatt:"black making an error here, an error there"
>>
>>In chess terms he made his error on move 23, not "an error here, an error there"
>>before move 23. In anti-computer terms, by your logic he should never should
>>agreed to the match, since 1...e5 is the defense he knows best and no matter
>>what he does he will be playing into Hydra's strength (either the "open game" or
>>else openings Adams doesn't know as well as Hydra).
>>
>>Hyatt:"he just has no chance in that kind of position"
>>
>>This is silly. Of course he has a chance. The odds are against him, yes. The
>>odds are against him when he has black no matter _what_ opening he plays. But
>>Adams on a good day will find a way to hold 1...e5 against Hydra, even if/when
>>Hydra opens things up.
>>
>>Hyatt:"Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1
>>here already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move."
>>
>>No. Maybe Crafty said +1, but the _top_ programs say ~=.
>>
>>Hyatt:"If your strength is in the same area as your opponent, but his strength
>>in that area is much greater, only an idiot would stick with that plan"
>>
>>You're calling Adams an idiot? This is the kind of statement I find really
>>offensive. What arrogance!!
>>
>>>I'd be fairly happy with either side against an equal human opponent.  But
>>>against a computer, I want things blocked, not open.  e4 e5 is the wrong way to
>>>block things up.  There are multiple options after e4 that avoid many of the
>>>wide-open king-pawn type positions...
>>>
>>>He's done the same thing again today.  f4 was the move I would play as white,
>>>_unless_ I was playing a computer.  Before I would play f4, I would have to be
>>>_certain_ that I can win from that point.  I would not want to leave the
>>>computer playing on both sides of the board, with a pair of bishops, pair of
>>>rooks and a queen still on the board.
>>
>>Then how come he got a draw today?
>>
>>>So again, my comments were based not on pure chess, but on the opponent for
>>>Adams...
>>
>>I believe Adams knows better than anyone else on the planet in what openings he
>>does best against computers. I think it is highly arrogant when people suggest
>>otherwise. The fact that Adams is a 1...e5 player does not help him, I agree;
>>but if he starts switching openings he will also have trouble, since now he will
>>be playing a computer that knows the opening better than he does.
>
>Wrong
>A computer generally has no idea how to play certain openings. Hydra is clueless
>either.
>It is known that Hydra uses a relatively small book. It would be not a big
>problem to get it out of book early similiar to the Kasparov- Deep Junior match.
>
>I have beaten Shredder 9.02 running on a Dual Opteron with Black in 30 moves at
>the CSS freestyle online tourney.
>The opening was 1.e4 h6?
>Do you think I play 1...h6 against humans in OTB games?
>
>I don´t suggest Adams should play it, although it probably isn´t worse than 1.e4
>e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 :)
>
>Michael
>
>

Kasparov was also playing rather open chess in the matches with Junior and
Fritz.

I remember game 4 with Fritz. The commentators were really worried that Kasparov
had played into an open position - the horror. Of course the game was easily
drawn.

A lot of people here get hung up on this anti-comp stuff. The problem is you can
take yourself out of your normal game and really look like an idiot playing that
way. (See Kasparov-Deep Blue 2 for some examples.) Chess is going to have some
tactics.

Also keep in mind that many weaker players are happy to lose game after game
playing passively before finally drawing. Adams wouldn't be so happy with that.

Basically there is a tricky balancing point. Yes, machines are better in open
positions. The question is, do you drop your main defense to 1. e4 because of
this? Adams thought not - and believe me, it's not because he doesn't know
anything about chess software :)

Vas

>
>
> _Either_ way
>>is an up-hill battle. Adams might try 1...c6, since he has played that on
>>occaision, but anything else is highly unlikely and computers can put some real
>>presure on in the Caro too.
>>
>>-Robin



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